beagleman
Major Contributor
I am confused as to where you are seeing a high noise level......and what do you consider "High"?
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dbx 223xs Crossover Review
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I think you missed the "relatively" qualifier in front of my high noise floor statement.
It is difficult to judge noise floor by just looking at a FFT (especially when no FFT length is given) but I wouldn't accept a DAC with 102 SNR at 4 V output especially if it is consistent noise across the audio band as I know that this will result in hiss with an amplifier of reasonable gain and moderately sensitive speakers.
From a residual noise standpoint this is worse than a miniDSP 2x4HD (D/A only, AD/DA is a few dB worse) which people commonly complain is too noisy and hisses.
In quantitative terms I like to see a 4 V SNR of at least 115 dB to give me residual noise of 4 x 10^(-115/20) = 7.1 uV going in to the amplifier as I know that if I pair this with a reasonable low noise amplifier (say 26 dB gain, < 50 uV residual noise) I'll be at around 150 uV at the speaker terminals which is good enough for 90+ dB sensitive tweeters. For comparison putting this dBx in front of the same amplifier will result in 600+ uV residual noise at the speaker terminals.
Michael
Good measurement results from this crossover, 
and better than the dsp crossover dbx venu360.
Individual peq and eq for every drive unit before any crossover is done is very important for good results, because every driver on a real baffle gonna have very irregular frequency respons without corrections. This is easily done with a dsp crossover. This is the negative thing about analog active crossovers. Its hard to get good results without eq. In that way, a dsp crossover with worse SINAD might sound better anyway than an analog active crossover.
and better than the dsp crossover dbx venu360.Individual peq and eq for every drive unit before any crossover is done is very important for good results, because every driver on a real baffle gonna have very irregular frequency respons without corrections. This is easily done with a dsp crossover. This is the negative thing about analog active crossovers. Its hard to get good results without eq. In that way, a dsp crossover with worse SINAD might sound better anyway than an analog active crossover.
Note the target application is pro audio, which generally accepts a higher noise level than consumer products. Not saying good or bad, it is what it is. My system used Magnepans driven by modest consumer amps and I heard no hiss. A higher-sensitivity and especially compression driver (horn) system may have audible hiss. It is also a very old product, though may have been upgraded through the years (if it uses op amps, as seems likely, they may have updated them through the years). Of course, I remember when 80 to 100 dB SNR for a pro amp was considered very good. We're spoiled by all these high-SNR/low-THD devices these days.
And yah, today most of us would go for some sort of DSP-based scheme that has a lot more flexibility to aide integration.
For my last use, I used it to cross from mains to subs, so the AVR saw them as a pair of "large" speakers that were each hybrid speaker-crossover-sub "towers". That way the AVR handled all the alignment and integration issues.
And yah, today most of us would go for some sort of DSP-based scheme that has a lot more flexibility to aide integration.
For my last use, I used it to cross from mains to subs, so the AVR saw them as a pair of "large" speakers that were each hybrid speaker-crossover-sub "towers". That way the AVR handled all the alignment and integration issues.
DanielT
Major Contributor
Regarding noise,miniDSP and active crossover. From another thread:
thomann t.racks DSP 4x4 Mini Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the thomann t.racks DSP four by four matrix DSP. It was kindly purchased new by a member and costs just US $99. I really like the form factor here and inclusion of brackets for mounting in cars and such. Inclusion of balanced I/O is much...
audiosciencereview.com
Note, regarding miniDSP not miniDSP HD.And another model active crossover but maybe it is generally applicable regarding active crossover? If you can generalize in that way? I do not know.
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DanielT
Major Contributor
A 24 dB passive HP-LP crossover with coils and capacitors, what do you think such a thing costs for two subwoofers and a pair of speakers? Then the passive crossover is also only fixed at one crossover point. You can change that with an active crossover.
Edit:
Then we haven't even gotten into crossover into the digital world. What it can enable.
Lots of reasons, but rather than list them all again I'll note you can buy inline filters like Harrison Labs' FMOD, a Marchand crossover, and there are a few kit crossovers and such. May be some other inexpensive models in boxes, not something I have researched.
Among the cons for passive filters are difficulty in achieving high-order roll offs (and suppressing noise pickup when inductors are used), interaction with source and load impedances, inability to adjust phase or amplitude/attenuation to assist in system integration, inability to easily adjust the crossover (filter) frequencies to dial in the design (though 80 Hz would do it for most sub systems), etc. The box might not be all that small given the size of caps and coils required.
IMO - Don
Prana Ferox
Addicted to Fun and Learning
$245 is the boxed-new price but generally a home user would be buying these used, because it's not like they wear out and DBX has been making a variant of this for ages.
Still, this is mainly for splitting bass bins and top hats which is why it has the crossover frequency bands it has. For home subwoofer use you'd probably want something with more bass management options.
They're not as thick on the ground as they used to be but $250 can still get you a used DCX2496.
Still, this is mainly for splitting bass bins and top hats which is why it has the crossover frequency bands it has. For home subwoofer use you'd probably want something with more bass management options.
They're not as thick on the ground as they used to be but $250 can still get you a used DCX2496.
DanielT
Major Contributor
Hm, wonder why it is more expensive in the US? Euro-$ 1:1 value.Thus $159 , see attached image.
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Huh, neat seeing this tested! Looks pretty solid, too.
I had its bigger brother (the 234XS) in my system for a good while, and never really noticed any ill effects from having it there. Mine eventually started making weird buzzing noises in one of the low outputs, though I'm still not 100% sure if this was a stubborn ground loop or an actual defect. I had another crossover that did not have the issue, so I switched to that.
One thing that I would warn about, at least with my 234XS: If you turn these things off without first turning off your power amps, they send out a seriously nasty spike through the low outs. Hearing your subwoofers produce an incredibly loud thump and then slowly deflate like a balloon is absolutely terrifying! This won't be an issue if you're good about turning stuff off in the right order (or have a switched sequence doing it for you), but if you ever forget you'll know immediately.
I had its bigger brother (the 234XS) in my system for a good while, and never really noticed any ill effects from having it there. Mine eventually started making weird buzzing noises in one of the low outputs, though I'm still not 100% sure if this was a stubborn ground loop or an actual defect. I had another crossover that did not have the issue, so I switched to that.
One thing that I would warn about, at least with my 234XS: If you turn these things off without first turning off your power amps, they send out a seriously nasty spike through the low outs. Hearing your subwoofers produce an incredibly loud thump and then slowly deflate like a balloon is absolutely terrifying! This won't be an issue if you're good about turning stuff off in the right order (or have a switched sequence doing it for you), but if you ever forget you'll know immediately.
I own a similar model from dBX and have always looked forward to (and feared) the day that somebody might objectively measure it.
All ASR readers know that feeling, right?
I enjoy it and it sounds good to me but I know enough not to trust my own ears. I used to accomplish the exact same thing with a MiniDSP, but I like having the physical knobs and I kind of enjoy the "pro" look in my den, although obviously not a lot of people are going to want that in their living rooms.
All ASR readers know that feeling, right?
I enjoy it and it sounds good to me but I know enough not to trust my own ears. I used to accomplish the exact same thing with a MiniDSP, but I like having the physical knobs and I kind of enjoy the "pro" look in my den, although obviously not a lot of people are going to want that in their living rooms.
Yeah, this has always blown my mind. A low-cost, high-quality, simple hipass/lopass crossover seems like a very common need in the hi-fi market and one that would be relatively easy to engineer. Always thought it would have made sense as something for Schiit to tackle.
pattox
Member
I too was happy to see this review, and relieved to read that technically the crossover generally scrubs up fairly well.
Ten years ago I decided to remove the passive crossovers in my 3 way speakers and go active. My first active xover was a Behringer. It was fine for a few years until it started to generate ear splitting high pitched squeals at random times.
I replaced it with a dbx 234xs which I have been very happy with even though in some respects to me it is an unfinished product.
As someone else mentioned be very sure to turn on the dbx before powering on the amplifiers, and powering down the amps before turning off the dbx to avoid the massive powerup and power dowm thump from the dbx.
In terms of finish, the dbx is less refined than the Behringer-no inbuilt on/off switch, very few indicator leds etc.
If dbx were planning to improve this product I suggest adding a “soft start” module to eliminate the power on/ power off massive thump-and it is massive!. And add an inbuilt on/ off switch.
Ten years ago I decided to remove the passive crossovers in my 3 way speakers and go active. My first active xover was a Behringer. It was fine for a few years until it started to generate ear splitting high pitched squeals at random times.
I replaced it with a dbx 234xs which I have been very happy with even though in some respects to me it is an unfinished product.
As someone else mentioned be very sure to turn on the dbx before powering on the amplifiers, and powering down the amps before turning off the dbx to avoid the massive powerup and power dowm thump from the dbx.
In terms of finish, the dbx is less refined than the Behringer-no inbuilt on/off switch, very few indicator leds etc.
If dbx were planning to improve this product I suggest adding a “soft start” module to eliminate the power on/ power off massive thump-and it is massive!. And add an inbuilt on/ off switch.
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Not that it matters, but if you've had it for that long, yours may also be made in the USA.
I had a dbx Driverack 260 which was made in the USA, and never skipped a beat. Dead on reliable, and well executed. The software side of the house back then was pretty anemic, apps looks like MS DOS, without exaggeration.
DualTriode
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jamescarter1982
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thanks is the 40hrtz crossover effecting a higher frequency than expected ?
Hi. Any advice on a good digital XO for hiend hifi + 1 or 2 subs ? Thanks in advance.
Should I be looking out for this, Icon Audio Gradient Box ?A 24 dB passive HP-LP crossover with coils and capacitors, what do you think such a thing costs for two subwoofers and a pair of speakers? Then the passive crossover is also only fixed at one crossover point. You can change that with an active crossover.
Edit:
Then we haven't even gotten into crossover into the digital world. What it can enable.
Gradient Box
DanielT
Major Contributor
Well, maybe it could be something BUT I'm not that knowledgeable in the area of crossover. For my own part, I have bought an active crossover filter LD X 223, which I intended to plug in in the future between my subwoofers and speakers.Should I be looking out for this, Icon Audio Gradient Box ?
Gradient Box
6moons.com
LD Systems X 223
Active Crossover Stereo 2-way/Mono 3-way, Frequency range: 20 - 20,000 Hz, Dynamics: 106 dB, 2x High gain, 2x High pass: 40 Hz, 2x Input gain, 2x Low gain, 2x Switch Freq. x1 / x10, 2x X-Over Freq. Low/High, 2x X-Over Low/Mid, 4x Inv. Switch, LF...
www.thomann.de
My tip to you create a new thread with the title: Any advice on a good digital XO for 1 or 2 subs?
Post that thread here:
Audio Newbie/Beginner Technical Forum
Have a technical audio question and want to know the definitive answer to it? Ask your questions here! No question is too trivial. So don't be shy.
audiosciencereview.com
Or here if you're doing a DIY subwoofer project:
DIY Audio Forum
Let us know what you have built yourself that is cool and fantastic.
audiosciencereview.com
Good luck!
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