DBA (Double Bass Array) - marketing?

[landco]

Hi!

Seriously, why? Isn't it easier to move one subwoofer than to build a marketing madness of 4 boxes in a typical 16-20 square meters, as is most often the case?

The argument like "what if I have to put it in the center of the room" does not stand up to criticism - most often it is enough to move it a little so that the hole in the listening area goes away.

The argument about a wide zone of uniform bass also does not stand up to criticism, since it is enough to ensure uniformity in the listening area, the rest of the room does not interest us

 

[staticV3]

A DBA not only achieves uniform frequency response, but also extremely low RT60 impossible to replicate using conventional subwoofer placement.

 

[landco]

A DBA not only achieves uniform frequency response, but also extremely low RT60 impossible to replicate using conventional subwoofer placement.

Room correction systems suppress reverberation well, for example, Yamaha has had YPAO RSC technology - reflected sound control - for many years.
Any good setup uses DSP, so the question itself disappears.

 

[olieb]

Yamaha has had YPAO RSC technology - reflected sound control - for many years.

Now, who is talking about "marketing madness"?

Any good setup uses DSP, so the question itself disappears.

What question?

 

[landco]

Now, who is talking about "marketing madness"?

If you think DRC is marketing, I have bad news for you.

 

[Arindal]

also extremely low RT60 impossible to replicate using conventional subwoofer placement.

We should remark that with directional subwoofers such as dipoles or cardioids, it might be doable as well, you you might need two or three of them.

Room correction systems suppress reverberation well,

Reverberation is not the issue that is solved by a DBA, but overly long decay of room modes in the bass region as well as them being excited in a non-linear manner depending on the time period of excitement as well as SPL.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

but overly long decay of room modes in the bass region

Long decay of room modes directly affect reverberation.

 

[Bjorn]

The benefit of DBA is lack of résonances/ringing and short decay besides an even response. To achieve that with one single subwoofer you need to use a lot acoustic treatment. However, that can be done at a very low cost if the room is built from scratch or you have enough space for treatment.

The drawback of DBA is that can't work very high frequency, it's primarily something for the sub frequencies. The area 100-250 Hz is often more important than sub frequencies. Obviously it's also possible to combine DBA with treatment above 100 Hz.

 

[landco]

Reverberation is not the issue that is solved by a DBA, but overly long decay of room modes in the bass region as well as them being excited in a non-linear manner depending on the time period of excitement as well as SPL.

It would be nice to see a comparative review of 2 approaches - with and without DBA with room correction, a competent blind test. But what I have seen on the topic of DBA so far looks more like a PR campaign, "wow, install 4 subwoofers immediately"

 

[landco]

To achieve that with one single subwoofer you need to use a lot acoustic treatment

If the room is so bad in the acoustic sense that even DRC does not help, then acoustic treatment will be needed in any case, this argument of the DBA supporter also seems dubious to me

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

It would be nice to see a comparative review of 2 approaches - with and without DBA with room correction, a competent blind test.

No need for blind listening test, measurements are enough for validation. There are plenty of measurements for both approaches. DBA works, surely.

the topic of DBA so far looks more like a PR campaign, "wow, install 4 subwoofers immediately"

Maybe it looks to you like PR, but for good results DBA really needs 4 subwoofers.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

then acoustic treatment will be needed in any case, this argument of the DBA supporter also seems dubious to me

There are cases where acoustic treatment is not possible, at least not possible at the desirable level (low frequencies are the most troublesome) . Then DBA is a good solution.

 

[landco]

No need for blind listening test, measurements are enough for validation. There are plenty of measurements for both approaches. DBA works, surely.

Blind listening - the last and most important argument in the debate when it comes to practical comparisons of two audio systems.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Blind listening - the last and most important argument in the debate when it comes to practical comparisons of two audio systems.

Have you ever heard of objective tests - measurements, etc.? Measured differences pre-and-after DBA are so large, there is no need for blind listening. My friend has DBA with 4 subwoofers and appropriate DSP, and he never looked back. I listened to his system with and without DBA - there is no contest.
Your hatred for DBA is illogical and groundless.

 

[Bjorn]

If the room is so bad in the acoustic sense that even DRC does not help, then acoustic treatment will be needed in any case, this argument of the DBA supporter also seems dubious to me

Acoustic treatment is always needed for a great result. However, treating sub frequencies requires substantial treatment to achieve what's possible with DBA. Not practical for everyone.

"DRC" or EQ will not work well in the domain domain, and EQ for cancelations either doesn't work or adds a lot of distortion.

 

[landco]

there is no need for blind listening

There are 2 categories of people who don't need blind listening - audiophiles and marketers. If your goal is to establish the truth, then a blind test is the foundation of foundations.

 

[Arindal]

If the room is so bad in the acoustic sense that even DRC does not help

So could you please explain how exactly DRC would help with room modes below 80Hz and solely omnidirectional loudspeakers, particularly if they result in an audibly long decay, spikes and dips in FR largely varying over different listening/measuring positions, as well as being excited in a non-linear manner depending on transient tones vs. extended sine waves as well as different SPL of excitement?

There are 2 categories of people who don't need blind listening - audiophiles and marketers.

The third category is people who understand about measurements, judging if conditions are meeting the minimum requirements for a comparison. While I think that particularly with the latter phenomenon of non-linearity, we cannot solely rely on measurements for a definitive answer, but even a bunch of in-room frequency response measurements are enough to judge if two solutions are solving the main issues. And it remains to be seen how any kind of electronic correction could achieve the same thing the DBA does, prior to doing a listening test. As mentioned, I doubt that it is possible.

The second problem with DBA and listening tests is that it only works in a limited frequency range. Both listening tests with lowpass-filtered signals <100Hz nor in combination with satellite speakers being not accurately adjusted to the bass, would be very meaningful.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

There are 2 categories of people who don't need blind listening - audiophiles and marketers.

When there are drastically different measurements pre-and-after, there is a third category of people who don't need blind listening. That third category are engineers, especially engineers who are speaker designers/manufacturers and acoustics designers - which I am.

 

[landco]

So could you please explain how exactly DRC would help with room modes below 80Hz

In most cases, this will be done by moving the subwoofer a little. You didn't notice what I wrote in the post.
It's a lot easier and cheaper than buying 4 subwoofers instead of 1 to supress the mods, right?

 

[mcdn]

Hi!

Seriously, why? Isn't it easier to move one subwoofer than to build a marketing madness of 4 boxes in a typical 16-20 square meters, as is most often the case?

The argument like "what if I have to put it in the center of the room" does not stand up to criticism - most often it is enough to move it a little so that the hole in the listening area goes away.

The argument about a wide zone of uniform bass also does not stand up to criticism, since it is enough to ensure uniformity in the listening area, the rest of the room does not interest us

You seem to be talking about multiple subs, not a DBA. A double bass array has four or more subs on the front wall and the same on the back wall, so minimum 8 subs, all of them off the floor.