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Dayton Audio OPAL1 speaker launches

No. The Epique woofers and (new model) Reference Series tweeters are pretty recent models and best sellers.



No. DIYers know the designer, he participates to a limited extent on some of the DIY forums, takes Spinorama measurements and uses VituixCAD.

The speakers generally have good reviews but that doesn't mean everyone is going to like them. They definitely don't measure flat enough for a lot of ASR members. I get the feeling that PE knows it's customer base just fine and it's goal is to make money selling speakers to that base. (And ASR members aren't the core of that base.)


Simple Hoffman's Iron Law. The Epique E150HE-4 woofer can reach crazy-low in a small enclosure (F3 of 32Hz in ~0.40 cf). Raw driver is 83.3dB sensitivity and with baffle step loss the final speaker has low sensitivity. But has huge xmax so give it a bunch of cheap power.
Fair enough! It certainly all looks intentional and I guess they figure the world doesn't need more "flat on axis smooth directivity" studio monitor-like speakers. And I have to give credit where it's due for bass extension and done in a similar way that KEF does to manage room gain. I just find the midrange and treble swings to be pretty aggressive to the point that I wouldn't consider these even at half the price.

That said, I can't dispute a "love it or hate it" strategy in a crowded market, if that's what they're doing. Those that want this sound signature don't have a ton of high quality and affordable options.
 
As far as sales are concerned from PE, I feel the truly better designs out there that are then DIY are based on driver sales. The people that want a best-size-fits-all, are not interested in drivers, but finished speakers only. This group generally are not the perfectionists that the DIYer tends to be, nor do they typically have they a better trained ear or understanding of measurements of such a system like the accomplished DIYer has learned, grown, developed, or experienced.

As to lower cost retail speaker designs;
You have to be able to:
- build to a price point, keeping design time low and results high
- use aesthetically pleasing and marketable drivers and cabinets
- find a decent spectral balance that both good and bad recordings sound rudimentally "fine".
- keep price high enough to make profit, and low enough to sell.
- keep size format small enough for most living rooms, and also the spousal acceptance factor.

I'll repeat that they met their target audience head-on with better than average suitability, and lower cost, and better performance than seen in similar products. They sound and look good, and that is all they need to do. Let's see anyone design and successfully sell a commercial offering for less money with better performance under the same criteria.

These are not Genelecs, JBLs, ATC, etc. They do not have the branding advantage that these pro heritage companies do. All companies have to start somewhere to get a product like this introduced.

They were the cheapest speakers for sale at AXPONA last year, Jaws dropped all day, and many were very impressed sonically. Except for squiggles not matching something in a state of the art commercial offering that costs at least twice as much, really, what is not to like?

Bickering about this or that being inferior or superior with regard to a design such as this is like kicking your dog for licking your face or being the wrong breed or color. These are just the wrong choice for your preferences.
 
At some point, PE switched to more novelty speaker designs (like Opals and Orians). They had CBTs and still have Bagby's Solstice, but neither was/is probably much volume for them. They have some decent drivers, but most of the more premium lines are over at Madisound. Nothing really prevents them from making a good measuring design at this point. As they are good at kitting, would be nice to see something higher quality emerge from PE. :)
 
Rick- it would likely cost more than current offerings. In marketing, do you reduce cost to keep them enticing and selling, or do you sell at a higher price and risk them not selling just to achieve better performance? There is a reason speakers like Genelecs, Revel, and JBL cost what they do.
 
Rick- it would likely cost more than current offerings. In marketing, do you reduce cost to keep them enticing and selling, or do you sell at a higher price and risk them not selling just to achieve better performance? There is a reason speakers like Genelecs, Revel, and JBL cost what they do.

No doubt a better speakers take more time and resources and PE is not set up to compete head-to-head with big brands. That said, when DIYers are capable of turning out designs that measure well, PEs lack of better measuring designs is not a matter of budget or talent, but seems more likely is a target marketing choice. Was somebody suggesting they should compete with bigger companies?

PE already offers mass market budget speakers. Am not sure how they measure, but as you scale up to more premium speakers, they could just as easily offer a better measuring speaker. It could easily be 80% of a bigger brand at 50% of the price. They seem to be avoiding that space. It could be that they have enough OEMs for drivers that they are choosing to avoid competing with their OEM’s offerings. Without some PE insider perspective, we are all just speculating.
 
No doubt a better speakers take more time and resources and PE is not set up to compete head-to-head with big brands. That said, when DIYers are capable of turning out designs that measure well, PEs lack of better measuring designs is not a matter of budget or talent, but seems more likely is a target marketing choice. Was somebody suggesting they should compete with bigger companies?

PE already offers mass market speakers. Am not sure how they measure, but as you scale up to more premium speakers, they could just as easily offer a better measuring speaker. It could easily be 80% of a bigger brand at 50% of the price. They seem to be avoiding that space. It could be that they have enough OEMs for drivers that they are choosing to avoid competing with their OEM’s offerings. Without some PE insider perspective, we are all just speculating.
Another good point, competing directly with your customers / partners tends to annoy them. The OPAL seems designed to avoid that. Maybe this design is smarter than it looks at first glance.

Also, a lot of their customers are DIYers trying to build well-measuring speakers, as you note. Might not be good for business taking the wind out of their sails by offering a kit or finished speaker with measurements they would struggle to reproduce on their own. DIY is already almost pointless as a cost / performance proposition against stuff like Ascilab or even a JBL 308p... so it might not make sense for PE to make that even more obvious to their consumers.
 

With speakers like this, it's just kind of embarrassing to put out something that costs the same with considerably worse performance metrics like the opal1.

Dayton does have the ND25FW, they could've used that instead of the RST28 which I find to be a pretty bleh tweeter. Better DI, better linearity on axis. I think Dayton is just lazy sometimes. Like the new M series speakers that are powered but use passive filters, the 6" model costing as much as some Kali LP6. Why?
 
...DIY is already almost pointless as a cost / performance proposition against stuff like Ascilab or even a JBL 308p...

I keep seeing people say stuff like this and it seems the opposite to me. The F6B measures GREAT and uses $184 of off-the-shelf drivers. The OPAL1 uses $282 in off-the-shelf drivers. Both in rectangular prism cabinets with small roundovers. I would think it would be obvious that if you don't have to make an easy-to-mass-produce cabinet and don't have to earn a profit margin, that DIY is cost/performance is much better. The biggest problem is there is such limited info on existing DIY designs and designing yourself is a HUGE undertaking.
 
DIY is cost/performance is much better.
Well, a really fair comparison might be a known-good DIY design like Mechano '24 vs F6B... which uses over $300 in OTS drivers per pair and can't necessarily compete in terms of verticals. After xover components and cabinet, you are probably saving some money, yes. But the performance isn't equal and you still have to build it yourself. Or maybe the Audio First Fidelia kit, which costs more than the F6B and you have to build it yourself.

But, if you don't aim for the SOTA bookshelf and instead settle for something rather good and rather cheap, you can have a pair of 308p MKii secondhand for less than the drivers of the Mechano.

This is really what I mean, if you want to aim for a strong price / value proposition above all, mass-produced stuff, especially secondhand, will very often call DIY into question.

With speakers like this, it's just kind of embarrassing to put out something that costs the same with considerably worse performance metrics like the opal1.

Dayton does have the ND25FW, they could've used that instead of the RST28 which I find to be a pretty bleh tweeter. Better DI, better linearity on axis. I think Dayton is just lazy sometimes. Like the new M series speakers that are powered but use passive filters, the 6" model costing as much as some Kali LP6. Why?
After some discussion I think it could be business strategy, rather than the best they can do in terms of measurements.
 
Well, a really fair comparison might be a known-good DIY design like Mechano '24 vs F6B... which uses over $300 in OTS drivers per pair and can't necessarily compete in terms of verticals....

I know this topic is debated all the time, so won't spend more time in the Opal thread...but the Mechano23 would be the better comparison (in my opinion) to the F6B as they are both using the SBxxPFC line of woofers. The Mechano23 uses $170 in drivers per pair but has a much too expensive crossover. But my original point was that we KNOW the $184 of drivers in the F6B - its not like they are some unobtainable KEF or ATC drivers. 3D print a waveguide, build a curved cabinet with 1-1/2" roundovers and buy $300 of Walnut Burl veneer. (This is not to take away from the Ascilab F6B as I think it is very impressive and hope they do great commercially.)

I don't disagree with the point about the secondhand market.

Also, thanks for the link to the Mechano '24, I was familiar with the other 3 designs but not this one.
 
The F6B measures GREAT and uses $184 of off-the-shelf drivers.
It should be added though that Ascilab engineers some superb custom waveguides and selects and centers their tweeters with Klippel tools so they can be crossed so low, both features which are not feasible for normal DIY hobbyists like the most of us.
 
It should be added though that Ascilab engineers some superb custom waveguides and selects and centers their tweeters with Klippel tools so they can be crossed so low, both features which are not feasible for normal DIY hobbyists like the most of us.
You can design custom waveguides in Ath4, a free program available to DIYers. A 3D printed waveguide costs $5 in filament IF you have your own 3D printer.

My Earthworks M23R with good measurements and VituixCad probably gets me within 0.2 dB of Klippel as far as the standard Spinorama measurements go.

I would argue the Ascilab is so good because the speaker designer(s) is very good and knowledgeable, not because of any tools at his disposal.
 
You can design custom waveguides in Ath4, a free program available to DIYers. A 3D printed waveguide costs $5 in filament IF you have your own 3D printer.
The software and printing is not the issue, but the knowhow behind to generate such a superb directivity. For personal use someone could just copy it of course, but that is something different.

My Earthworks M23R with good measurements and VituixCad probably gets me within 0.2 dB of Klippel as far as the standard Spinorama measurements go.

I would argue the Ascilab is so good because the speaker designer(s) is very good and knowledgeable, not because of any tools at his disposal.
I am not talking about FR response measurements which of course all of us can do but the Klippel tool (laser scanner) they use to measure, select and center the voice coils of the tweeters which are not available to most hobbyists.
 
You can design custom waveguides in Ath4, a free program available to DIYers. A 3D printed waveguide costs $5 in filament IF you have your own 3D printer.

My Earthworks M23R with good measurements and VituixCad probably gets me within 0.2 dB of Klippel as far as the standard Spinorama measurements go.

I would argue the Ascilab is so good because the speaker designer(s) is very good and knowledgeable, not because of any tools at his disposal.
I'm sure I could design "a waveguide' but not to the level that Ascilab has. I think it's actually asymmetrical to account for the position on the baffle, etc.

I think it's a good illustration of the difference between actual SOTA and advanced DIY. they can measure pretty close and look quite similar, but it seems more advanced engineering techniques do pay off.
 
What if someone takes that same Epique 1W 2PR and the Dayton waveguide tweeter to make an ASR Opal?

Also how loud do people really need to have things? I run bass boosted double 3" on my desk and they are more than enough even standing back in the room a little
 
What if someone takes that same Epique 1W 2PR and the Dayton waveguide tweeter to make an ASR Opal?

Also how loud do people really need to have things? I run bass boosted double 3" on my desk and they are more than enough even standing back in the room a little

To what end? As discussed, if PE wants to do different or better, they have the resources.
 
To what end? As discussed, if PE wants to do different or better, they have the resources.

Don't think that user was talking about PE doing it.


What if someone takes that same Epique 1W 2PR and the Dayton waveguide tweeter to make an ASR Opal?

I have a sim already, but it is just a sim that is missing some crucial data but should still at least be in the ballpark. I'm a little hesitant to spend $200 on the woofers. The tweeters have been out of stock for what feels like eternity.

VituixCAD SPL.png
 
Don't think that user was talking about PE doing it.




I have a sim already, but it is just a sim that is missing some crucial data but should still at least be in the ballpark. I'm a little hesitant to spend $200 on the woofers. The tweeters have been out of stock for what feels like eternity.

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While may be interesting, PE has employees to design speakers. Unless you have some other personal motivation, why spend money to do something they pay employees to do? As you mention, it would actually cost you to try.
 
While may be interesting, PE has employees to design speakers. Unless you have some other personal motivation, why spend money to do something they pay employees to do? As you mention, it would actually cost you to try.

I like to build speakers? That tends to be motivation enough. I'd say they need to pay them more, or less, because I don't see much quality coming from them. Only one speaker from them would I even consider good out of a whole host of kits.

If one executed the proposed design, you'd get a small bookshelf with great low end extension, DI, power response, etc... It's not like I'd just build it and say "told you so". I'd actually use the speaker lol.
 
I like to build speakers? That tends to be motivation enough. I'd say they need to pay them more, or less, because I don't see much quality coming from them. Only one speaker from them would I even consider good out of a whole host of kits.

I get it, but have so many better ideas queued, that fixing PE or any other brand’s design does not interest me (notably to spend my money to fix a more marginal design).
 
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