David Byrne on CD vs LP sound

[Blake Klondike]

Reading Davis Byrne's book How Music Works and he just threw what may be pseudoscience into a discussion of the development of the CD. He claims that LPS are capable of infinitely smooth dynamic gradations, whereas since CD data is binary, you reach a point where the sound is either ON or OFF-- a gradual crescendo from silence won't start with dead silence in some cases.

I expect even if what he is saying is true, the differences are inaudible. But is it true in any sense in the first place?

 

[LF78]

Not true because you don't listen to bits, but to the analog output of D/A converter.

 

[kemmler3D]

It's only true in a loose sense because of dithering and the fact that there is always a noise floor. This is a simplistic way to think about both formats, because what typically happens in either case is the quietest sound gets overwhelmed by noise, and for digital the noise is vastly lower.

There is no such thing as infinitely smooth, not on vinyl, nor tape... It always ends in noise.

The "stair steps" concept in digital audio is also what causes the noise floor, (not some imperceptibly fast buzzing or whatever people think) although that seems counterintuitive to people.

 

[Blake Klondike]

Not true because you don't listen to bits, but to the analog output of D/A converter.

thanks! so much room in this field for things to sound plausible if you don't have technical training.

 

[voodooless]

He missed sampling theorem 101

Monty video time:

 

[ryanosaur]

He missed sampling theorem 101

Replaced in his schedule by Coke 401 and remedial pyromania.

 

[bungle]

He claims that LPS are capable of infinitely smooth dynamic gradations, whereas since CD data is binary, you reach a point where the sound is either ON or OFF-- a gradual crescendo from silence won't start with dead silence in some cases.

And then the modern LPs are created from a digital master.

 

[Beave]

As a big Talking Heads fan, I read his book a few years ago.

As a big Talking Heads fan who is also an electrical engineer who worked on digital audio, I was appalled to read the chapter on digital audio. How in the world does that get past editors? How in the world can somebody think to write a chapter in their book about a subject they don't understand at all?

I still love his music, but that chapter is an embarrassment.

 

[respice finem]

Human invention in producing pseudoscience is indeed infinite
scnr

But seriously: The "infinite gradation" LP is not even capable of providing the same performance twice (because of gradual mechanical wear).

 

[threni]

Human invention in producing pseudoscience is indeed infinite
scnr

But seriously: The "infinite gradation" LP is not even capable of providing the same performance twice (because of gradual mechanical wear).

@amirm A little heads up that the message I'm replying to is invisible when reading ASR in dark mode.

 

[egellings]

Not true because you don't listen to bits, but to the analog output of D/A converter.

The reconstructed output signal from a CD goes through an output filter to remove any H.F. artifacts. At the CD's 44.1kSa/sec rate, any irregularities would be microscopic and inaudible.

 

[Robin L]

Reading Davis Byrne's book How Music Works and he just threw what may be pseudoscience into a discussion of the development of the CD. He claims that LPS are capable of infinitely smooth dynamic gradations, whereas since CD data is binary, you reach a point where the sound is either ON or OFF-- a gradual crescendo from silence won't start with dead silence in some cases.

I expect even if what he is saying is true, the differences are inaudible. But is it true in any sense in the first place?

Nope.
Analog recordings break down into the "bits" (so to speak) of the particles of iron oxide in the tape formulation. Those particles are also either on or off. Thus "tape hiss". This happens in an obviously audible way in pre-Dolby recordings. At a certain point, with noise reduction, this artifact becomes inaudible. But the "bits" in a digital recording are inaudible to begin with.

 

[Multicore]

I read his book a few years ago.

Reading Davis Byrne's book How Music Works

What do you think of the parts of the book that aren't engineering?

 

[HalSF]

He missed sampling theorem 101

Monty video time:

Digital and hi-res vs. analog topics are like a Bat Signal that summons up the knee jerk posting of neckbeard philosopher Monty Montgomery’s videos for the billionth time. It’s the rickrolling of audio discourse.

 

[RickS]

Wonder if he still produces his albums using analog?

 

[DVDdoug]

He claims that LPS are capable of infinitely smooth dynamic gradations, whereas since CD data is binary, you reach a point where the sound is either ON or OFF-- a gradual crescendo from silence won't start with dead silence in some cases.

That's a common naive argument but anybody with ears should know it's not true, except the "kids" who haven't heard vinyl.

Some people prefer the sound of vinyl and that's OK, but it's technically inferior and it has less usable resolution than CD (or MP3).

As kemmler3D said, the resolution of analog is limited by noise.*

It's like saying (analog) VHS tapes have more resolution than (digital) Blu-Ray or that an analog tape measure has more resolution than my digital calipers.

I expect even if what he is saying is true, the differences are inaudible. But is it true in any sense in the first place?

The differences ARE audible!!! You can always hear noise between tracks and during fade-outs (especially with headphones or when the volume is turned-up). And often there is "snap", "crackle", and "pop". Most records have at least a few clicks pops and sometimes some nasty-loud clicks & pops. I grew-up with vinyl and those clicks & pops always annoyed me, especially when it was my record... I'd know when the click was coming and I'd be waiting for it rather than enjoying the music. (Most people didn't seem bothered by it.) When I got my 1st CD player I was amazed by the dead-silent background!

Records (and phono cartridges) also have frequency response irregularities, which aren't always a BIG problem because you can use tone controls or EQ, but digital is "dead flat" over the audio range. And you occasionally get tracking distortion which doesn't happen with CDs (or other digital).

Having grown-up with analog, digital is wonderful!!!



* Interestingly, if you listen to an 8-bit file, the lack of resolution is heard as quantization noise, even thought it's different from analog noise and unlike analog noise it goes-away completely with silence.

 

[RickS]

That's a common naive argument but anybody with ears should know it's not true, except the "kids" who haven't heard vinyl.

Some people prefer the sound of vinyl and that's OK, but it's technically inferior and it has less usable resolution than CD (or MP3).

As kemmler3D said, the resolution of analog is limited by noise.*

It's like saying (analog) VHS tapes have more resolution than (digital) Blu-Ray or that an analog tape measure has more resolution than my digital calipers.


The differences ARE audible!!! You can always hear noise between tracks and during fade-outs (especially with headphones or when the volume is turned-up). And often there is "snap", "crackle", and "pop". Most records have at least a few clicks pops and sometimes some nasty-loud clicks pops. I grew-up with vinyl and those clicks & pops always annoyed me, especially when it was my record... I'd know when the click was coming and I'd be waiting for it rather than enjoying the music. (Most people didn't seem bothered by it.) When I got my 1st CD player I was amazed by the dead-silent background!

Records (and phono cartridges) also have frequency response irregularities, which aren't always a BIG problem because you can use tone controls or EQ, but digital is "dead flat" over the audio range. And you occasionally get tracking distortion which doesn't happen with CDs (or other digital).

Having grown-up with analog, digital is wonderful!!!



* Interestingly, if you listen to an 8-bit file, the lack of resolution is heard as quantization noise, even thought it's different from analog noise and unlike analog noise it goes-away completely with silence.

Stop making sense!

 

[monkeyboy]

lp are made from digital masters...watch a video on how lp are made, there is no way you are not losing information in the process...people like lps because they grew up in a time where they have never heard a high frequency note before, so on a modern system, things don't sound like they used to...the first sound you hear is "mother"...

 

[Koeitje]

Reading Davis Byrne's book How Music Works and he just threw what may be pseudoscience into a discussion of the development of the CD. He claims that LPS are capable of infinitely smooth dynamic gradations, whereas since CD data is binary, you reach a point where the sound is either ON or OFF-- a gradual crescendo from silence won't start with dead silence in some cases.

I expect even if what he is saying is true, the differences are inaudible. But is it true in any sense in the first place?

Apart from him not understanding how digital audio works, I also find that statement rather hilarious because if there is one thing vinyl isn't know for it is dead silence.

 

[DVDdoug]

D: To be fair... Davis Byrne is probably can't hear the noise (or high frequencies) because was a rocker and he probably ruined his hearing, plus he's 73 years old! Neil Young also seems to think he's an "audiophile" but I suspect his hearing isn't perfect either.

...I'm "no kid" myself and I've lost some "high frequency response".