Datasat LS10 AV Processor Review

[Krobar]

@amirm Are there any HT processors out there with remotely SOTA performance figures?

It's not my field or interest, but surely there is an opportunity for one of the big boys to step up with a truly excellent performing processor, one that can actually be upgraded (not just one that promises "slots for upgrades" that never happen). One with an open platform, plenty of firepower and a ubiquitous set of "slots". Think IBM PCXT standard but 35 years on.

Although their performance hasn't been good NAD are the only ones who have actually delivered fairly well with their upgradable MDC boards. Just need a much better performing M17.

 

[muslhead]

i am not sure it can be considered a ht processor in your definition but the high end product (soon to be released) from zidoo is impressive, handling both audio and video (including streaming). How they can do all this for less than 1k is amazing. I would love to see it reviewed. I am waiting for the cheapest version of the video processor to hit my door next week. If it is as good as the reviews i have read, i am considering adding the top of the line (as soon as it becomes released) since it ticks all the boxes for me.

Check it out here (current model not yet upgraded to newest uhd3000)
BTW - I have no vested interest in this link other than my own personal interest in the product

https://www.zidoo.tv/Product/index/model/UHD2000/target/+S1T99[ld]Q8MRKKmVViAFMcQ==.html

 

[Robbo99999]

i am not sure it can be considered a ht processor in your definition but the high end product (soon to be released) from zidoo is impressive, handling both audio and video (including streaming). How they can do all this for less than 1k is amazing. I would love to see it reviewed. I am waiting for the cheapest version of the video processor to hit my door next week. If it is as good as the reviews i have read, i am considering adding the top of the line (as soon as it becomes released) since it ticks all the boxes for me.

Check it out here (current model not yet upgraded to newest uhd3000)
BTW - I have no vested interest in this link other than my own personal interest in the product

https://www.zidoo.tv/Product/index/model/UHD2000/target/+S1T99[ld]Q8MRKKmVViAFMcQ==.html

The difference is that's just a 2 channel product isn't it? It also doesn't do EQ by the looks of it? I'm a bit confused though about what it actually does, what are it's different usage features, how would you use it in different systems?

 

[muslhead]

The difference is that's just a 2 channel product isn't it? It also doesn't do EQ by the looks of it? I'm a bit confused though about what it actually does, what are it's different usage features, how would you use it in different systems?

correct, no eq.
it decodes multi channel but only has 2-channel output for music audio in addition to the multi-channel video hdmi channels. If playing video, it would need another amp or av (I am using a denon av4700h for those duties + eq)
Why it interested me is because it could be be a single streamer solution (instead of my current 2) since it handles all audio files including sacd, dsf and multichannel video.

 

[Joachim Herbert]

Think IBM PCXT standard but 35 years on.

Will not happen because DRM. I believe the DRM regime in HT prevents high quality solutions as there are too many black boxes and legal aspects to be dealt with. Focus is on features and buzz, not on quality. Also, why design a clean audiopath when decoders corrupt the sound anyway?

 

[milosz]

15 channels... and which DVDs / BLU-RAYs have 15 channel audio....? Even 7.1 soundtracks are rare.

I suppose Dolby Atmos and DTS:X could steer sound objects to all those channels...I'd be curious to know how that would work. Wouldn't the original film sound designers have to specify to the processor what to do with sound objects if 15 channels were available? How would Atmos processor know which sound object to place in a top /rear or top /front / center speaker?

I'm curious also if the $12,000+ one spends on this gizmo provides 8k video capability. Or is that an additional arm + leg + firstborn?

 

[PierreV]

All this is depressing in that it appears there is no possibility of equaling top notch stereo DAC performance from $100/channel DACs or $50/channel recording interfaces in any AV products unless you spend huge money and probably not even then. As you say AV just walked away from real performance.
What bothers me is with only a tiny amount of care you can probably make a product that doesn't throw away performance for the exact same money or maybe only 10% more.

"walked away" implies they once were there. Do we know that? And the same goes for "can probably make".
I am not disagreeing with you here, I am just genuinely interested in the answer.

I haven't upgraded my home theater audio side stuff in ages simply because I don't find anything compelling (well, I added a couple of subs, but that's it).

 

[Sal1950]

I haven't upgraded my home theater audio side stuff in ages simply because I don't find anything compelling (well, I added a couple of subs, but that's it).

What would you find "compelling"?
Do you have any capability for the immersive techs like Atmos, DTS-X, or Auro?
Or lossless multich audio decoding for BluRay's like DTS-HD Master Audio, Dolby TrueHD, and Linear PCM?
All of these techs have been plenty compelling for me and worth the cost of entry.
YMMV

 

[Robbo99999]

correct, no eq.
it decodes multi channel but only has 2-channel output for music audio in addition to the multi-channel video hdmi channels. If playing video, it would need another amp or av (I am using a denon av4700h for those duties + eq)
Why it interested me is because it could be be a single streamer solution (instead of my current 2) since it handles all audio files including sacd, dsf and multichannel video.

Ok, I understand it a little more, seems like a bit of a mongrel!

 

[PierreV]

What would you find "compelling"?
Do you have any capability for the immersive techs like Atmos, DTS-X, or Auro?
Or lossless multich audio decoding for BluRay's like DTS-HD Master Audio, Dolby TrueHD, and Linear PCM?
All of these techs have been plenty compelling for me and worth the cost of entry.
YMMV

The ability to drive good speakers, probably in the focal line (quite satisfied with my scala utopias elsewhere) in a 7.2 or 9.2 configuration (actually probably 9.4 - but the sub part is already available anyway) without having to deal with multiple separate hypex boxes and the without the psychological angst of knowing my preamp is already borderline.

The current system is still a Marantz 7008 paired with a Klipsch reference II set of speakers and SVS subs (2000 or SB16Ultras, the latter being overkill for the room and therefore filling other duties now). The rationale for the Klipsch at the time (possibly wrong) was that their efficiency would compensate for the relatively anemic power of the Marantz with many channels driven.

EQ'ed the system sounds "spectacular", at least to the ears of standard people, and much better than what I usually hear in movie theaters. But the speakers are definitely no match for the utopias... which the Marantz is unable to drive even remotely properly anyway.

So, I guess I need 1 multichannel pre, feeding another box that houses several hypex amps (or maybe one 7 amps box and a stereo one for L/R).

It seems that NAD might be going there, but their results here have been a bit inconsistent...

Ceiling speakers are a no go at the moment.

 

[Consilient]

New member here after reading and lurking for a year. First, Amirm thank you for this site and all you do. Great resource! Second, thanks to all the members who have enhanced my knowledge and understanding. A lot is over my head but I'm learning.

Regarding high-end AV processors, there appears to be difficulty supporting the high channel count processing associated with immersive sound formats such as Dolby Atmos, DTS X and Auro-3D. None of the major CE players even offer a product that can support full 16 channel and above. The gold-standard is the Trinnov Altitude 32 which can exceed $30,000 USD with add-ons, so there is a huge market gap between the major CE products and the ultra high-end. That's why smaller players are attempting to fill that void. These include Lightstorm and Lyngdorf/Steinway at the upper end around $15,000-$20,000, JBL Synthesis in the $10-15K range, and Emotiva and Monoprice in the $5k range. It would be great to measure an Altitude 32 or its little cousin the Altitude 16 as a benchmark. Anyone want to pony up their prized $30 grand component for testing

 

[muslhead]

Ok, I understand it a little more, seems like a bit of a mongrel!

LOL, yup but fits what i need perfectly for cheap

 

[Sal1950]

The VNC interface is not very attractive either:

$12,500 for a kindergarten level GUI? That's pitiful.

All this is depressing in that it appears there is no possibility of equaling top notch stereo DAC performance from $100/channel DACs or $50/channel recording interfaces in any AV products unless you spend huge money and probably not even then. As you say AV just walked away from real performance.
What bothers me is with only a tiny amount of care you can probably make a product that doesn't throw away performance for the exact same money or maybe only 10% more.

I completely agree with your statement but the question I have to ask is at what point could we call the DAC performance to have reached a "transparent" level? Yes, we have very inexpensive DAC's around that can supply at or near SOTA performance numbers while at the same time we have a number of threads debating if the various DAC's really sound different when listened to under bias controlled DBT conditions. The below thread is over a year old, 99 pages long and still very active, LOL and there are lots more here.
Serious question-How do you deal with people thinking a DAC has a SOUND SIGNATURE?
Then when it comes to doing serious measurement and DBT on AVR's we enter into a world where any bottom line conclusions will/would be extremely difficult. What the end listener is most usually presented with (listening to) includes a digital stream that has been altered by things like a Dolby/DTS/Auro multich compression schemes, Audyssey, Dirac, ARC digital room correction software on all channels, and lots more.
They are from such different worlds that audible listening tests would be next to impossible.
The only thing we can shoot for is to compare the DBT sound of a good 2ch DAC & top tier stereo playback system against the sound of an AVR playing the same 2ch source with all the extra processing disabled. That would be a very interesting challenge to pursue. I've done a few here as best as I could using my Emotiva DC-1 DAC straight into the Adcom amp powering the L&R front speakers and at the end of the day my 70 yo ears couldn't detect any obvious differences though I admit the testing conditions were far from optimal.
Are we holding AVR's and PrePro's to too high a standard that wouldn't be audible on the bottom line?

 

[Dimifoot]

The only thing we can shoot for is to compare the DBT sound of a good 2ch DAC & top tier stereo playback system against the sound of an AVR playing the same 2ch source with all the extra processing disabled.

This would be like comparing a black and white TV set with a 75in OLED on black&white films of the 50s.
What’s the point?

The new multichannel and immersive recordings sound breathtaking on a modern multichannel system, with multisub and properly calibrated. Let’s see how they compare on these grounds, why not?

 

[LTig]

While I did not test it, I believe this is the first AV product I have seen that can act like a USB DAC.

The Classé Sigma SSP can do this as well, at least for 2 channels. I haven't tested more channels.

 

[Sal1950]

The new multichannel and immersive recordings sound breathtaking on a modern multichannel system, with multisub and properly calibrated. Let’s see how they compare on these grounds, why not?

No problem but as you say that's a apples/oranges compare. IMHO my 5.2.4 multich rig crushes most stereos when used as intended. The point I was interested in testing for was how well an AVR would hold up against a SOTA stereo system under real world, like circumstances.

 

[amirm]

Would be very interested to see how the new breed of high end processors measure like the Trinnov, Storm and Lyngdorf, any of these up for review amirm?

One is.

 

[audioBliss]

15 channels... and which DVDs / BLU-RAYs have 15 channel audio....? Even 7.1 soundtracks are rare.

I suppose Dolby Atmos and DTS:X could steer sound objects to all those channels...I'd be curious to know how that would work. Wouldn't the original film sound designers have to specify to the processor what to do with sound objects if 15 channels were available? How would Atmos processor know which sound object to place in a top /rear or top /front / center speaker?

I'm curious also if the $12,000+ one spends on this gizmo provides 8k video capability. Or is that an additional arm + leg + firstborn?

We've moved well beyond channel based audio formats like 5.1 and 7.1 at this point. A lot of the big movies/series have Dolby Atmos object based sound tracks even on streaming services. Instead of steering the object around channels and telling the processor what level each channel should be they make one object based mix.

Then the mix basically just tells the processor where in space the object should be rendered. The AVR will then use the speakers needed to render that object in that particular part in space(your room). Now if you have a 5.1.2 system to work with the AVR will use all those speakers available to render the object best it can. If you happened to have a 9.1.6 system at hand it will render the object with more precision since it has more speakers to work with.

The soundtrack will scale up 24.1.10 I believe so if you buy a movie today with Dolby Atmos and you currently have 5.1.2 for example the same soundtrack on the disc will scale all the way to 24.1.10 if you happen to upgrade to a system like that. So I think it's a pretty smart system in sense. You can re-watch your old content when you upgrade and rehear the same soundtrack but with even better sound.

8K and all of HDMI 2.1 is still beta IMO. As far as I know only Denon and Marantz have AVRs with HDMI 2.1 but now people are finding out that there is some bug in some chip that is needed for certain features to work. This is not fixable by firmware so pretty bad...All these expensive processors move forward slowly due to issues like this and you will not find high-end processors with HDMI 2.1 any time soon I would think..and if they do not all features will work I can almost promise.

After the $4000 mark(Monprice HTP-1) I'm not sure what extra stuff you are getting really in terms of 16 channels(or less) products. The measured performance is worse in a lot of cases and the software is very buggy it seems, reading forums. That is unless you really need 16V out, Dante or some other special feature then maybe Datasat, JBL Synthesis or Storm is the way to go but otherwise it looks like a bad deal to me.

So what I'm saying is that you don't need to spend $12000 to get these features unless you need the higher output voltage etc. And if you want 8K then you have to resort to buying a more consumer oriented product with worse room correction, 2V out etc. And for now all of HDMI 2.1 is basically for gamers.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Too bad that I am too lazy to finally hack x3600/x3700 and make a DIY guide how to get all channels as spdif.

 

[Dan1210]

We've moved well beyond channel based audio formats like 5.1 and 7.1 at this point. A lot of the big movies/series have Dolby Atmos object based sound tracks even on streaming services. Instead of steering the object around channels and telling the processor what level each channel should be they make one object based mix.

Then the mix basically just tells the processor where in space the object should be rendered. The AVR will then use the speakers needed to render that object in that particular part in space(your room). Now if you have a 5.1.2 system to work with the AVR will use all those speakers available to render the object best it can. If you happened to have a 9.1.6 system at hand it will render the object with more precision since it has more speakers to work with.

The soundtrack will scale up 24.1.10 I believe so if you buy a movie today with Dolby Atmos and you currently have 5.1.2 for example the same soundtrack on the disc will scale all the way to 24.1.10 if you happen to upgrade to a system like that. So I think it's a pretty smart system in sense. You can re-watch your old content when you upgrade and rehear the same soundtrack but with even better sound.

8K and all of HDMI 2.1 is still beta IMO. As far as I know only Denon and Marantz have AVRs with HDMI 2.1 but now people are finding out that there is some bug in some chip that is needed for certain features to work. This is not fixable by firmware so pretty bad...All these expensive processors move forward slowly due to issues like this and you will not find high-end processors with HDMI 2.1 any time soon I would think..and if they do not all features will work I can almost promise.

After the $4000 mark(Monprice HTP-1) I'm not sure what extra stuff you are getting really in terms of 16 channels(or less) products. The measured performance is worse in a lot of cases and the software is very buggy it seems, reading forums. That is unless you really need 16V out, Dante or some other special feature then maybe Datasat, JBL Synthesis or Storm is the way to go but otherwise it looks like a bad deal to me.

So what I'm saying is that you don't need to spend $12000 to get these features unless you need the higher output voltage etc. And if you want 8K then you have to resort to buying a more consumer oriented product with worse room correction, 2V out etc. And for now all of HDMI 2.1 is basically for gamers.

I thought that all current home atmos mixes max out at 7.2.4 anything after that is extra processing added after the fact? I understood that the home version of atmos for want of a better description is ‘half baked’ and not the same as the commercial version?
Im happy to be wrong but im sure I have read this somewhere.