Darlington MP7B and AT-VM745xML pairing?

[Chris_The VolsFan]

Hi, I’m somewhat a newb in some aspects of this game. (Mainly with turntables, cartridges, preamps) about 4months ago I upgraded an oled Denon entry level turntable to a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon .. and then a month later I upgraded the cart to a VM95ML and added a Schiit Mani2 preamp .. now, recently just upgraded to a aluminum sub-platter and acrylic platter .. (Been fighting a low end roar ever since) My question is .. I was researching phono preamps .. using google AI and it keeps telling me that the AT-VM745xML and the Darlington Labs MP7B are the next step up for my equipment without creating bottlenecks in the chain. My issue is, I can’t find any information really on the MP7B .. nothing on Youtube or a demo anywhere about it .. And, i’m feeling a little burned by AI by pushing the acrylic/aluminum platter combo on me and now i’m fighting the low end roar. So, I’m in search for some human expertise on the matter.

So, sorry this is so long and rambly

 

[JeffS7444]

I'm not a fan of the notion of hifi as a series of increasingly costly upgrades: That won't get you to some alleged "next level" despite what some folks would have you believe. What many of us have discovered after many years and thousands of dollars spent is that sometimes, you really do reach "end-game" performance cheaply.

Specs for Schiit Mani 2 are already very good. But IMO, this is one instance where there is a logical next step, and that's a DSP preamp, specifically, Parks Audio Waxwing.

Got a real time analyzer, either PC-based, or built into a component like Behringer's DEQ2496? Besides being entertaining to watch, it'll probably make it really obvious which frequencies are causing your "low end roar", and as you make adjustments to Waxwing's filters, you'll not only hear the difference, but will have visual confirmation as well. BTW, are you already using Mani's subsonic filter? If not, I'd advise it, because most of the really low frequency content in vinyl playback is garbage, not program content. Waxwing also has this capability, but it allows for greater precision.

 

[Chris_The VolsFan]

Yeah, I agree on the upgrade chasing thing .. I just wanted to basically optimize what I have without creating a bottle neck in the chain .. Google AI kept telling me that I would be able to achieve that goal and that chasing higher end product would just create the exact bottleneck that I’m trying to avoid .. But, it keeps suggesting the Darlington Labs MP7B paired with the VM745xML as being the exact peak to max out my chain .. (and, i’ve never heard of Darlington Labs before)

My set up in case that helps decipher or advise a better option (And, yes I have the 12db subsonic filter on on the Mani2 .. the roar is minimal now since I changed my platform setup)

Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO (upgraded)
Mani2
Node2i
Denon X4700H
DefTech BP8040ST mains
DefTech DN8 Sub
Klipsh Rw-10D Sub
DefTech CS8040HD center
DefTech DT8 in-wall side surrounds
Revel C-265 in ceiling
DefTech BP8040SR rear height

And, I do feel like I’m close to maxing out my potential with the equipment I have .. I don’t use Audyssy .. I have manually time/phase aligned everything and used RTA and db meter to get the room as close as possible to a true Harman curve .. I have flat bass from 100hz down to 25hz with a flat midrange shelf and about a 4db roll of on the high end right now .. (So, I really don’t need my phono preamp to do that work)

 

[Chris_The VolsFan]

I guess, too, what I’m asking is .. Am I going to hear $350 worth of difference in my sound now compared to upgrading to the VM745xML cartridge over the VM95ML I have now .. And, is a $500 Darlington MP7B(or another quality “audiophile” preamp going to sound twice as good as it sounds now?

 

[raindance]

The bottleneck is already the records... Any phono preamp with accurate RIAA EQ and one of the Audio Technical 540ML's with the correct loading and you're as good as it gets. Although with the right arm the 95ML is good too.

But before you spend anything more, fix the roar.

 

[Chris_The VolsFan]

I should state that the roar is only when I push to around -10db on the volume (I don’t know if that’s normal listening level or if some roar is to be expected at close to reference level) and the reason I was looking at the AT-VM745xML and not the 540ML was that it supposedly has a wider soundstage with the new deign and more high end accuracy with the boron cantilever .. But, with the AI that’s where it started suggesting the Darlington to pair with it .. said I needed a preamp that’s just going to pass an accurate uncolored signal of the 745xML thru to my Denon (and, that the 745xML is the closest sounding MM cart to a MC cartridge sound.

 

[Karl_in_Chicago]

Yeah, I agree on the upgrade chasing thing .. I just wanted to basically optimize what I have without creating a bottle neck in the chain .. Google AI kept telling me that I would be able to achieve that goal and that chasing higher end product would just create the exact bottleneck that I’m trying to avoid .. But, it keeps suggesting the Darlington Labs MP7B paired with the VM745xML as being the exact peak to max out my chain .. (and, i’ve never heard of Darlington Labs before)

Can't help with your AI or its recco's but the Darlington Labs gear hits way above its weight class.

 

[Chris_The VolsFan]

Can't help with your AI or its recco's but the Darlington Labs gear hits way above its weight class.

Heck, i’m happy to know an actual living person has used/review or just heard one .. Like I said, that’s been my biggest issue .. I can’t find any info on them and their website isn’t really good either. I have confidence that I’ll probably be happy with the cartridge upgrade since I already like the sound of my current VM95ML .. But, from what I’ve read, matching the correct cart with the right preamp is pretty important.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Amir reviewed one of Darlington Labs' phono preamplifiers. Headroom and RIAA accuracy was good. The lack of feedback presumably caused the high distortion levels. There is no high-pass filter, which is a dumb exclusion.

Darlington Labs MM-5 Review (Phono Stage)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Darlington Labs MM-5 Moving Magnet phono pre-amplifier. It was kindly purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me. It has a few options but as purchased, it costs US $199 from the company. The front panel doesn't look half bad for a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Balle Clorin]

now, recently just upgraded to a aluminum sub-platter and acrylic platter .. (Been fighting a low end roar ever since)

So why do you continue to use it with such a problem, get rid of it and get money and silence back. I never trust AI, garbage in=garbage out. Ther is so much nonsense in subjective hifi forums and AI just recycles it


Maybe you damaged something or did a mistake when you install the new sub platter/platter?

 

[Chris_The VolsFan]

After about a weeks worth of trouble shooting, changing positions and rebuilding my platform with difference absorption feet/spacers .. As of last night, I now have my subsonic filter turned off completely and am listening at -10 db on the volume without any roaring .. So, I think i’ve conquered it .. fingers crossed.

I was just not prepared for that with the aluminum subplatter and acrylic platter .. Everything I’d read up to that point about those upgrades were nothing but positive effects from the upgrades.

 

[Chris_The VolsFan]

So why do you continue to use it with such a problem, get rid of it and get money and silence back. I never trust AI, garbage in=garbage out. Ther is so much nonsense in subjective hifi forums and AI just recycles it


Maybe you damaged something or did a mistake when you install the new sub platter/platter?

From you’re reply .. you’re no better than AI

 

[spieg]

Hey Chris, I've been stepping through a similar path recently. Full disclosure, i'm somewhat new to all of this vinyl stuff. I started out with an AT-VM95ML and was happy with it but wanted a little something more. I jumped from that to the AT-VM740xML. It's pretty similar to the 745 you asked about, and i'd say that jump while noticeable, wasn't that significant to me. If it were between those carts, i'd probably stick with the 95ML and put the savings toward something else. I also have a Mani2 that I recently replaced with a DL MP-7B. Before replacing the Mani2, I swapped to an AT33xMLD out of curiosity around the whole MC thing. The difference between the 740xML and the AT33xMLD was more significant than the difference between the 95ML and 740xML for me, and I much preferred the AT33xMLD. When I swapped from the Mani2 to the MP-7B, it was a 'night and day' difference. To be fair, some of that likely comes down to loading on the AT33xMLD (Mani2 loaded at 60db/200ohm, MP-7B loaded at 61db/100ohm), but the amount of bass/midbass impact that came alive was substantial in my setup. I haven't listened to the 95ML or the 740xML on the MP-7B, but I suspect it would be similar as the bass/midbass impact with both of them on the Mani2 was always a little lacking in the same way it was with the AT33xMLD. I also ran both the 95ML and 740xML on my AVR phono stage (Denon X3800H) prior to the Mani2. The Mani2 had a slightly better noise floor and more gain than the Denon, but otherwise sounded quite similar to me. I was very pleasantly surprised with the amount of impact (pun intended) the MP-7B made in my system.

 

[Chris_The VolsFan]

Thank you for the great insight .. this is exactly what I was hoping to get by coming here. I also, was at first looking at the 740 because of the price .. but, when I was researching with Google AI .. It keeps telling me that because the 745xml has the boron cantilever and the 740xml has the aluminum (like the 95ml) the 745xml is a superior cartridge and sounds as close to a MC cart as you can get (and it’s half the price of the 33xMLD. (it’s like $350 I think)

Also, it’s great to finally hear someone who’s had real world experience with the MP-7B and you’re description kinda matches what AI was telling me to expect from the Mani2 to the MP-7B .. so that’s a little more assuring as well.

Again, great input, it’s much appreciated.

 

[spieg]

You bet! Given my vm95ml->vm740xml>at33xmld progression, my advice would be skip the 7xx if you think you'll explore MC at some point.

Also for what it's worth, i've found prompting for 'percentage of audible difference an average human would hear' useful. While i'm sure a boron cantilever does make a difference, and AI will tell you as much, the percentage difference isn't as significant as AI might make it seem out of context.

I wish I had done that prompt before I bought the AT-VM740xML. I'm all for the big improvements even if they cost a little more, not so much the incremental ones.

 

[Chris_The VolsFan]

Thanks .. I’ll start using that. Also, if I were to move to the 33xmld .. will I have to upgrade the MP-7B also? And, I agree about spending money for the right upgrades .. I’m just worried that if I put an $800 cartridge on a $800 turntable with a $600 Preamp into a AVR .. I’m creating a bottleneck in my chain (basically that my other equipment will never be able to get the max out of that $800 cartridge) I’ve been trying to match everything to a the point of not overmatching on piece in the chain over another. I realize that the never ending upgrade is the history of being in this hobby .. But, my wallet won’t let me climb aboard that hamster wheel, as much as I’d love too.

 

[spieg]

No, the MP-7B has an LOMC step up stage. If you don't ever plan to go MC, the MM6B may meet your needs. Just an FYI, the Mani2 can also do MC, but it's a bit more limited in terms of loading. Just my opinion, but looking back on my setup, i'd rather have VM95ML+MP-7B than Mani2+VM740xML. But I don't regret the AT33xMLD and dont have plans to change it any time soon!

 

[HalSF]

.. using google AI and it keeps telling me that… So, I’m in search for some human expertise on the matter.

Google AI kept telling me that I

But, with the AI that’s where it started suggesting

.. but, when I was researching with Google AI .. It keeps telling me that

kinda matches what AI was telling me to expect

and AI will tell you as much, the percentage difference isn't as significant as AI might make it seem out of context.

I wish I had done that prompt before I bought

I’m quite interested in following this discussion as a fan of Darlington, Schiit, and Audio Technica carts in the vinyl realm.

At the same time this is the third ASR thread I’ve read today where the throat-clearing portion of the discussion, amid frustrated attempts to get past misleading information, are all the same variations of complaints about what agentic AI is “telling” people who are unsuccessfully trying to use it as a research tool.

This thread’s successful recourse to soliciting actual human expertise is encouraging, although it would have been a much better place to have started in the first place, together with ordinary web search, which still exists.

“I tried AI enshittification and now in desperation I’m turning to my fellow humans” is such a discouraging ruff.

 

[Chris_The VolsFan]

What lead me to here was that 1) I was bumping up against AI multiple times when it would tell me facts that I knew were wrong and when I questioned it, it would immediately back track and apologize for the mistake .. so, that’s when I stated becoming skeptical with it .. and then like I said in the original post .. it was saying (in multiple google AI searches where I would change the questioning) it always came back to the AT-VM745xML and Darlington MP7B as being the perfect combination for my setup. But, by this point I was already skeptical about the information it was giving me .. and I couldn’t find any info on the MP7B anywhere on youtube or anything of a real person experience with it .. Which lead me here.

Also, even after I asked again (using the parameters that Speig gave me .. it still says that the 745xML and MP7B are the perfect match for my setup. and explains why the 33xMLD would create a bottleneck in the chain.

(Basically that because I have multiple subs and time/phase aligned them and my BP8040ST have their own powered subs inside them .. I have to stay in “stereo mode to keep the phase/time alignment .. and in doing so, makes the incoming analog signal changed to digital inside the Denon .. which kills all the resolution of the MC cartridge)

 

[HalSF]

What lead me to here was that 1) I was bumping up against AI multiple times when it would tell me facts that I knew were wrong and when I questioned it, it would immediately back track and apologize for the mistake .. so, that’s when I stated becoming skeptical with it .. and then like I said in the original post .. it was saying (in multiple google AI searches where I would change the questioning) it always came back to the AT-VM745xML and Darlington MP7B as being the perfect combination for my setup. But, by this point I was already skeptical about the information it was giving me .. and I couldn’t find any info on the MP7B anywhere on youtube or anything of a real person experience with it .. Which lead me here.

Also, even after I asked again (using the parameters that Speig gave me .. it still says that the 745xML and MP7B are the perfect match for my setup. and explains why the 33xMLD would create a bottleneck in the chain.

(Basically that because I have multiple subs and time/phase aligned them and my BP8040ST have their own powered subs inside them .. I have to stay in “stereo mode to keep the phase/time alignment .. and in doing so, makes the incoming analog signal changed to digital inside the Denon .. which kills all the resolution of the MC cartridge)

An hour or so after I posted above I saw this new thread at Steve Hoffman Forums, which centers on the fact that the forum contents have been swallowed up and half-digested by AI, producing often terrible and inaccurate AI "facts" and "answers" to complex audio questions.

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/the-sh-forums-are-influencing-ai-thats-cool-and-alarming-at-the-same-time.1252678/

I'm sure that ASR content is also undergoing the same appropriation and half-assed robotic dissemination.

p.s. Speaking of SHF, this longrunning Darlington phono preamp thread is excellent:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/darlington-labs-phono-preamps.1084671/