Danny Richie's latest...

[MattHooper]

I listen to that podcast fairly regularly now and generally enjoy it. But I was disappointed in both their original and now this response regarding ASR.

Those guys in the podcast seem to show a fairly superficial experience of ASR, implying some of the standard anti-ASR tropes.

Before even questioning Amir’s experience in audio, he couldn’t be bothered to even check on that, and simply presumed he worked at Microsoft having nothing to do with audio.

Finally, most of their conversations seem to just sort of hinted or imply that Amir does not have the experience to really know what he’s doing. But they did not seem to actually address this with any substantial criticism or examples. It was mostly all just implied - Brent has so much “more” experience.

If they think Amir is actually doing things wrong or doesn’t know what he’s doing or is making bad arguments, they should actually address those. The only one they bothered to address regarding measuring loudspeakers seems to have been a miss.

 

[Somafunk]

Yeah I thought similar, I’ve been listening to them for quite a while and enjoy their twitterings and knowledge on all things audio but on this episode I feel they firmly shut the doors to further inclusion with Amir and belittled the capabilities of the klippel, it seems like they are quite satisfied with their own knowledge of the subject and believe that an “upstart newcomer” with the means to drop the sum of $150k on test equipment does not amount to worthy consideration to join the “club”.

I could be entirely wrong on my reading of their criticisms so would be happy to be proved wrong.

 

[Spkrdctr]

I listen to that podcast fairly regularly now and generally enjoy it. But I was disappointed in both their original and now this response regarding ASR.

Those guys in the podcast seem to show a fairly superficial experience of ASR, implying some of the standard anti-ASR tropes.

Before even questioning Amir’s experience in audio, he couldn’t be bothered to even check on that, and simply presumed he worked at Microsoft having nothing to do with audio.

Finally, most of their conversations seem to just sort of hinted or imply that Amir does not have the experience to really know what he’s doing. But they did not seem to actually address this with any substantial criticism or examples. It was mostly all just implied - Brent has so much “more” experience.

If they think Amir is actually doing things wrong or doesn’t know what he’s doing or is making bad arguments, they should actually address those. The only one they bothered to address regarding measuring loudspeakers seems to have been a miss.

Just a thought. If these guys are so wrong on the basic fundamentals. Why listen to them at all? To me the extreme lack of knowledge would discount in my mind almost anything they say. I have never listened to them but after reading how screwed up they are, I was just thinking "why bother with them"?

 

[MattHooper]

Just a thought. If these guys are so wrong on the basic fundamentals. Why listen to them at all? To me the extreme lack of knowledge would discount in my mind almost anything they say. I have never listened to them but after reading how screwed up they are, I was just thinking "why bother with them"?

There are not “wrong on the fundamentals.”
Brent Butterworth has plenty of experience measuring audio gear, and has consulted for various speaker companies as well on a technical level. As well as being an advocate for blind testing.

This is just a minor disagreement, where each side is saying “ you missed my point.”
This happens all the time, including between Amir and plenty of the technically sophisticated members on this site.

Butterworth is generally well aligned with the ethos of ASR, even if he has some misconceptions about ASR.

I would find it absolutely silly to the use current disagreement as a reason to discount anything else they say on their podcast. I find that petty, too reactionary, and falls into the category of “ the narcissism of small differences.”

 

[amirm]

Just a thought. If these guys are so wrong on the basic fundamentals. Why listen to them at all? To me the extreme lack of knowledge would discount in my mind almost anything they say. I have never listened to them but after reading how screwed up they are, I was just thinking "why bother with them"?

As noted, Brent has been around for a long time, providing objective measurements of audio gear. So I am sure he has a lot to offer in general. In this regard though, it appears he is as much trying to defend his own limited measurements of speakers (due to lack of anechoic chamber or Klippel NFS) as he is Danny's. It is also indicative of someone who hasn't quite kept up with the changing times, i.e. fully understand what Klippel NFS is.

 

[Rick Sykora]

As noted, Brent has been around for a long time, providing objective measurements of audio gear. So I am sure he has a lot to offer in general. In this regard though, it appears he is as much trying to defend his own limited measurements of speakers (due to lack of anechoic chamber or Klippel NFS) as he is Danny's. It is also indicative of someone who hasn't quite kept up with the changing times, i.e. fully understand what Klippel NFS is.

Was rather busy at the time, but the podcast claim was that a speaker (re)design does not need measurements under 200 Hz. In this case though, the speaker in question is a 3-way design with an original crossover at 250 Hz. So good design practice would be to know the response at least an octave lower (125 Hz). Add to that the Danny's redesign drops the response from 3-5 dB between 200 and 1200 Hz. So, likely Danny's redesign is bass heavy.

While Danny does appear to improve the midrange on-axis response, his measurement axis is significantly different than JBL’s. So cannot compare his measurements to the original speaker baseline. I stand by my original critique of this redesign and, if someone has evidence to show otherwise, would be willing to reconsider. But taking a used speaker, not baselining against the original design specs and conditions (and ignoring that it may be broken in some way) is not a process any experienced designer would follow. Certainly not one that wants me to pay for his upgrade kit.

 

[Bleib]

 

[Spkrdctr]

I lasted 5 minutes.......snake oil!!

 

[Ageve]

I lasted 5 minutes.......snake oil!!

Yep.

The video is a collaboration with GR Research.

Danny posted the original video 11 days earlier, and included a link to lossless recordings.

The file owner on Google Drive is "Ron".

 

[Rick Sykora]

Yep.

The video is a collaboration with GR Research.

Danny posted the original video 11 days earlier, and included a link to lossless recordings.

The file owner on Google Drive is "Ron".

View attachment 388108

Yes, you likely will hear a difference as he made a small change in the frequency response around 1000 Hz where our hearing is sensitive. Is it an improvement? Not as clear. But the more outrageous claim is that you can hear his "next level" changes via a recording. If you hear anything, it is likely just the difference in the frequency response.

Danny is the same guy who refused Amir's setup as being insufficient to hear how much better his speakers are. NRD is a shill for GR, so his opinion is biased. Snake oil is still snake oil even if mixed with something that makes it taste better!

P.S. simple eq could do more, is easier to do and for a lot less than $360. Save your money.

 

[ta240]

It would be really handy if people would write something about the videos they are posting. I have no desire to watch most of them and thus tend to lose the conversation at that point. Even just a one line summary would be great.

All that watching most of these videos makes me wonder is how long they spend practicing their looks. The 'Deep in thought', the 'It's okay, I know more than you', the 'I care so much it nearly hurts' and so on.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Yep.

The video is a collaboration with GR Research.

Danny posted the original video 11 days earlier and included a link to lossless recordings.

The file owner on Google Drive is "Ron".

View attachment 388108

These were $350/pair retail when brand new and his upgrade kit is $358. Would be better off applying that towards new speakers that do not require a major overhaul.

Btw, NoRez is difficult to get into a small woofer hole with the backing paper still attached. To get it inside a speaker with the adhesive exposed can only be done by cutting it into small pieces. Not sure how that affects its damping properties, but I only tried because I had some left over from the Encores. Am applying NoRez to a new build just to test the impact of covering all the surfaces of a speaker vs only each major parallel panel. Using even half can significantly affect the bass response.


P.S. Danny's latest youtube plea is for feedback, but only if you are already a customer. Anyone else is accused of being a fraud!

 

[evanft]

NoRez looks like closed cell foam you can buy in bulk from Amazon for a fraction of what Danny is selling for. I actually use it to add sound deadening to my computers. Works pretty well.

 

[MickeyBoy]

I totally agree. Doctors, lawyers and engineers are usually hard to deal with. Of course not ALL of them, just most of them. Doctors and lawyers know it all and our obviously (in their mind) always the smartest person in the room. Engineers are over the top technical. Generally poor teachers and jump into details that any non-audio person does not understand. But there is hope! Off on the horizon you see a guy mounted on a white horse trotting your way. He seems ten feet tall in the saddle. Once he arrives it is our own famous Amir. He is here to teach non-audio, non-engineers the basics, so they can at the very least make some value judgements and dodge the snake oil. So as I always say there are two types on ASR, the hardcore engineers (who argue with each other) and are fun to read, then the others are regular non-engineer people who just want to make wiser decisions and learn. So, in reality you can learn A LOT on ASR. All the way into high tech engineering if you want to get into it. Long live ASR! Amir for President! Oh wiait, I might have gotten carried away.

I have long enjoyed talking with engineers and I'm literature Ph.D
You just have to ask them their area of expertise. They will tell you. University colleagues have no area of tech knowledge, but in their own minds know everything about "global warming," Fed rate cuts, and ivermectin. Give me an honest engineerr every

 

[Todd68]

Yes, you likely will hear a difference as he made a small change in the frequency response around 1000 Hz where our hearing is sensitive. Is it an improvement? Not as clear. But the more outrageous claim is that you can hear his "next level" changes via a recording. If you hear anything, it is likely just the difference in the frequency response.

Danny is the same guy who refused Amir's setup as being insufficient to hear how much better his speakers are. NRD is a shill for GR, so his opinion is biased. Snake oil is still snake oil even if mixed with something that makes it taste better!

P.S. simple eq could do more, is easier to do and for a lot less than $360. Save your money.

Some of those posters who listened expressed hearing differences that a small change in frequency response could not provide IME. How do you explain that?

 

[Rick Sykora]

Some of those posters who listened expressed hearing differences that a small change in frequency response could not provide IME. How do you explain that?

Any number of conditions could affect individual’s ability to hear a difference. From equipment issues to damaged hearing to personal bias could affect one’s ability to discern.

I was judging by the measurements and honestly did not actually try. How was the demonstration conducted? Hearing memory is not that great so if the recordings cannot be readily switched for comparison, that may come into play too. Did you try?

 

[Joe Smith]

I certainly heard no appreciable differences between the clips. I'm of the opinion that, if you don't like the sound of your present speaker set, buy a different set, rather than endlessly tweaking.

 

[Todd68]

I certainly heard no appreciable differences between the clips. I'm of the opinion that, if you don't like the sound of your present speaker set, buy a different set, rather than endlessly tweaking.

Any number of conditions could affect individual’s ability to hear a difference. From equipment issues to damaged hearing to personal bias could affect one’s ability to hear.

I was judging by the measurements and honestly did not actually try. How was the demonstration conducted? Hearing memory is not that great so if the recordings cannot be readily switched for comparison, that may come into play too. Did you try?

I only listened with my iPhone out of curiosity. It was 5 or so short music clips that switched from before and after quickly, but you were shown which was which. With just the iPhone, the only thing I noticed was the female voice sounded better to me. I have no interest in this service so I didn’t try the full resolution version through my stereo or headphones. I read the comments, and some others who took the comparison more seriously apparently heard more of a difference.

 

[Todd68]

I certainly heard no appreciable differences between the clips. I'm of the opinion that, if you don't like the sound of your present speaker set, buy a different set, rather than endlessly tweaking.

I agree, but those speakers sound pretty good for the price, and instead of buying different speakers some just want to try and improve what they already own. Buying new speakers doesn’t guarantee more satisfaction.

 

[Rick Sykora]

I agree, but those speakers sound pretty good for the price, and instead of buying different speakers some just want to try and improve what they already own. Buying new speakers doesn’t guarantee more satisfaction.

But new does get you new drivers and warranty…

The problem is many do not have equipment to ensure the upgrade gets them a better outcome (if the upgrade is truly better). Hearing a difference may not be an improvement in accuracy. It is too easy to be deluded into believing your effort got you a better outcome than investing in newer speakers. In this case, Danny wants you to spend more than the original purchase price and does not show you how NoRez and crossover changes affect the overall tonal balance of the speaker.