More curious why you think particular speakers may provide all that is required? Kef I wouldn't call perfect by any means either....
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Danny Richie's latest...
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According to preference scores and measurements they are top notch, nothing is perfect and I never said any particular speaker would provide all that’s required, whatever that is.
MattHooper
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I agree.
Amir has really shaken things up in just the way the hobby needed! His influence, and also of this forum and hence some of the forum members too, is clearly wide ranging at this point.
I also see ever more measurements being used in YouTube reviews. I suspect the ASR influence there as well. But in any case, it’s great to see.
I have not formally reviewed Dirac Live. I do use it myself but limit it to 200 Hz where what is being corrected is impact of the room.
Possibly but a good speaker in my experience sounds good almost independent of that as long as you EQ for bass response.
KEFs have narrow dispersion. So while you may have accuracy on-axis, you may not have very spatial response. Your new speakers are entirely different, making everything sound grand due to extra reflections. That effect is tiring for me but there was a time I liked it in limited listening.
As to why there are many options, it is because there is so little reliable information about speakers from companies or just about any traditional audio press. As such people can't tell the good from the bad.
It is a needle in proverbial hay stack doing it that way. Now, if you use proper measurements, then the odds of buying something non-performant shrinks significantly.
I agree, I fell for some snake oil tweaks I could of avoided if I knew better at the time, though I use better quality cables than basic lamp cord and flimsy IC cables, some of the cable companies are the biggest ripoff.
Measurements are very helpful, but don’t tell the whole story.
This forum is especially helpful for the average person who just wants good sound, cuts through the BS. Though audio fanatics (spends thousands on cables etc) or snake oil pushers hate this forum.
They don't tell us about personal preference and that can vary wildly.
I've sat in demos of speakers I thought were terrible but almost everyone else there loved them.
Likewise I've had people say 'You like these speakers? They're not my sort of thing at all.'
Most people prefer linear speakers with good off-axis response, we know that from research. But most people isn't all people.
Don't get hung up on it. If it works for you that's the end of the story.
I agree. I don't think he questions the results at all, as long as he can use it to sell his crossover mods.
His measurements of Jamo Concert 8 is a good example.
He posted a video complaining about how bad it was, and made a crossover mod. The customer didn't accept the results, and I think there were also several comments on the video questioning it (It has been removed).
He ended up measuring two other Concert 8, and just as expected, the results were different.
He tried to put a spin on it, by saying that he actually thought there was something wrong with the first one, but it didn't stop him from posting the video, and as far as I remember, he didn't even mention a possible tweeter problem (I could be wrong, the video is gone...).
Follow-up:
This is how it compares to my gated measurement using a UMIK-2 (with 50 dB scaling):
The same results, but with 1/3 smoothing applied to my measurement:
Jamo Concert 8 / D830 Spinorama measurements (CTA-2034)
Here are some measurements of the Jamo Concert 8 bookshelf speaker. I think the MSRP was $2.400 / pair back in 1997, but I'm not sure (~$4.696 today). My measurements are quasi-anechoic, with port+woofer corrected for baffle edge diffraction, combined with gated 1m measurements. Looks...
www.audiosciencereview.com
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Judging from the very limited horizontal off-axis response data, the directivity of this NX-Otica is a hot mess.
NX-Otica Kit (Pair) | GR-Research
gr-research.com
Fully agree and while it is a limited set of measures, they are the most critical ones. Based on what Amir found in the X-Voce, pretty sure Danny does not understand open baffle design. It looks as though he borrowed from a known designer but does not know how to apply his woofers properly. Another example of this is his questionable use of the BG Neo3 tweeter. I like the tweeter overall but Danny tries to use it as a dipole AND lower the crossover point. Linkwitz tested this and here is his conclusion…
“In addition, for dipole application the back cavity of the Neo3W has to be removed, which will increase distortion. Partial cancellation of the front acoustic output by the rear acoustic output will require higher drive levels to maintain on-axis SPL. The lack of a rear chamber is likely to cause additional electro-mechanical problems. The large amount of distortion at relatively low power level would rule out this driver for my applications, which usually require a low crossover frequency.“
I wouldn’t recommend the NX OTICAS unless you have the room, the work best 5 or more feet from the front wall. That tweeter is the best I ever heard, plenty of detail, dynamics and never fatigued from listening.
One goal of the design is excellent imaging and soundstage, and when setup properly, they do this exceptionally. So despite the overall flaws the speakers are very enjoyable. And decently high sensitivity is also a plus.
What speakers are you involved in designing? I’d be interested in hearing a design of yours.
See the Directiva project. I lead the design team and Amir reviewed the active version. I just started my own designs under the name Denotiva. The initial design is still a work in progress.
Kudos for sticking around, and actually listening to and (sounds like) absorbing what’s being shared with you Quite frequently, it unfortunately goes sideways, and new folks oftentimes come with emotional attachments to their gear, favorite YT talking head, or perhaps looking to get some of their biases confirmed. It gets old watching Amir, and folks like Rick, for example, take the time and really try to convey why speaker X is a dogs breakfast, the engineering trade offs, why directivity is so important, etc, etc, etc. Only to have “new member x” act like my nephew does when his diaper’s full of baby-shit From my own perspective, it’s such a waste of a learning opportunity, squandering such a great resource, always offered in good faith. To me, it’s as frustrating as it is bizarre, as quite often it gets personal. Defences are up before they finish their first post. I really hate to put it this way, but science, and learning about the physical world (what an amazing thing to receive for nada) isn’t as important to some as getting that positive purchase reinforcement I suspect many come here looking for. It blows my mind how disproportionately at odds some peeps get when the expected response from Amir and the Cabal isn’t sunshine, unicorns, rainbows, and “everyone gets a prize,” mentality that seems to be so pervasive these days. It’s NEVER personal, it’s quite the opposite, I love how freely, and willingly knowledge is shared here. This place is a gem. Thanks for sticking around Todd, and actually listening. I learn things through you this way(that there’s at least one more reasonable human out there to offset some of the Truth=hurt feelings/everything’s personal crew. Come back, and come often brotha. In the end it’s only Hi-fi, but man, it’s the things you learn, and people you meet on the way. Truth, honesty, and a rational approach make me feel just an iota warmer inside
Apologies for the verbal diarrhea, it’s 0317 HST, and I have to attend a One-year-old’s birthday in a few hrs, not happy. There’s probably gonna be sunshine ,unicorns, and rainbows there, and everyone’s gonna get a prize just for “participating”. Goddamnit, I’m starting to sound like my father did
Petronius
Member
I wish to state that I intended no offense to any whom I have inadvertently offended. I learned a long time ago to never denegrate another man's wife, dog, car or in this case,
speakers. BUT there is a special place in Hell for those who would manipulate data to further their own gains.
speakers. BUT there is a special place in Hell for those who would manipulate data to further their own gains.
Danny recently called on manufactures to send him gear to recommend (or not).
Ofc, nobody else is clamoring to be sent equipment.
Ofc, nobody else is clamoring to be sent equipment.
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Gee... Who needs a team of engineers, a cabinet factory, management plus office workers when Danny might solve everything himself?
Must not want to send in equipment when the first thing Ritchie will say is that they don’t know about tube connectors, norez and expensive resistors and you should get the $200 upgrade.
This comment was picked up by one of the long time reviewer and measurement experts, Brent Butterworth in one of his podcasts. I was saddened to see them defending the above practice due to not understanding the full context of what Danny sells and promote.Add that he only measured the woofer from 200 Hz and above!
Here is a comment I wrote under the above video:
While there is truism in a number of things Brent mentions, there are some wrong assumptions. Danny has never shown a ground plane measurement much less stitch them to the gated measurements. The latter as I am sure you know, has highly reduced resolution even above 200 Hz. When you are in the business of selling speakers as Danny is, you better show the full response including bass. Not doing so results in decades of selling a speaker with this disastrous bass response: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...v123-gr-research-x-voce-speaker-review.49563/
And no, it is not about acquisition device. We all understand you can use anything to measure a speaker. But you well know that room reflections corrupt bass response so you must either use anechoic room, stitched response, or Klippel Near-field scanner with field separation. Danny doesn't use any of this so to claim that he is doing what Harman, etc. are doing is just wrong. Go ahead and look at the response of any speakers he sells. You won't find measurements in bass. Where else have you found a company showing speaker measurements that are just gated and start at 200 Hz? If you are a hobbyist then it is one thing. But if you claim as Danny does that he is the best there is as a speaker designer but doesn't even know what Klippel NFS does (he thinks it is an averaging device), nor understand the importance of full frequency response, then this is a big issue. If he can't make full range measurements, then he should get an agency to do it. Not to justify that one doesn't need it and you backing him. It is like rating a TV but not include color red!
His competitor, Ascend Acoustics saw a poor measurements that I did of one of his speakers and instead of complaining like Danny does, went and bought a Klippel NFS and is now producing world class speakers.
As to Harman, they have measured speakers with arrival of Dr. Toole with CEA-2034 style measurements. It is their protocol that got ratified as CEA-2034! So to say that they measured speakers before there was CEA-2034, makes no sense. Their spinorama was CEA-2034.
As far as listening, I listen to every speaker and headphone I review. But it is not just some random listening tests producing nonsense subjective outcomes. I use the measurements to develop equalization that lets me test deviations in frequency response. This is a powerful tool to determine audibility of those impairments. For electronics, such frequency response deviations do not exist so expecting me to do sighted listening of them makes no sense.
Finally, Rick is super knowledgeable about speakers, their measurements and design. He is my expert DIY speaker builder and evaluator. He knows everything you said and then some. I suggest not throwing rocks at people before learning who they are and what they know. What he criticizes about Danny's work is identical to what I have said and per above, has substantial weight.
Galliardist
Major Contributor
Good job you posted it here as well. There is only one comment under that video now, and it's just an ad hominem attack on ASR.
Sometimes I think you should just ditch the forum or restrict membership to those with a given level of expertise. I'm sure your message is getting lost in a wealth of less well written and informed forum posts... like, for example, a lot of mine
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