Danny Richie's latest...

[beagleman]

They do that because the market is guided by mysticism not facts so buyers expect it. It's demonstrable that they don't measure or sound any different.

Whether it hurts to do it or not, well, it won't make the speaker sound worse. But every extra dollar spent on the crossover is $10 on the retail price so it can add up quite fast. You can end up with a situation where corners are cut on things that do matter so they can spend on things the marketing department want.

Most speakers have a set retail price before the design work even begins. So where do you want that $200 in component budget spent? Drivers and cabinets or fancy capacitors?

Quite right!
And, Danny often does push high priced caps, as being far superior to, in his words, "Cheesy parts" that almost all retail speakers use.

I have never found anything definitive about higher priced caps TRULY sounding or measuring better. I think many like to imagine or simply believe they are better, but nothing concrete really supports that notion.

I have even tried higher priced caps a few times, and yeah I think I did imagine they helped the sound or added some "hidden detail", I was not able to really tell high priced from "junk" caps, when put to a blind test. So the brain must play a huge part in this type of stuff.

 

[beagleman]

I think even some major speaker companies use higher quality crossover parts in their expensive top line models, no? If it makes a difference is up for debate, but can’t hurt.

It can not hurt almost for sure.
As for being up for debate, to me it has been settled long ago, as I can find literally zero information, conclusively showing it does make a difference.

I think those, that want to believe it might make a difference, feel it is up for debate, but removing the human brain/perception part from the equation, nothing seems to verify it really matters.
I do think there COULD be very tiny changes, but a lot of this stuff falls into the audio myth category.

Most times when you have "Two sides" arguing about something, it is almost always NOT TRUE.
The arguing is coming from some people simply "hearing what they want to hear" and never from a point of having done a blind test to verify what they can hear or not.

 

[Spkrdctr]

The arguing is coming from some people simply "hearing what they want to hear" and never from a point of having done a blind test to verify what they can hear or not.

Yes. as Amir, JJ myself and a few others on this site know, there has never been a blind test done where anyone could ever tell a difference in wires, interconnects, normal amps (unbroken), length of speaker wires (unequal lengths by 15 feet) and other such audiophoolery. So we have 50 years of no one ever passing a blind test when they claimed before the test that anyone could hear the difference and it would be EASY to pass the test. As soon as the test was blind, they failed miserably. So with 50 years of 100% failure rate, you are in good company believing it doesn't matter in the the items I mentioned. The one item that can be picked out is speakers. The speakers swamp all of the other factors in a sound system. That is why I stay out of the "engineering discussions" on many topics. The human ability to hear differences is so amazingly poor that you can do a blind test that is set up at home and not set to high level engineering standards and STILL no one can pass. I was involved in trying to set up messed up systems with unequal speaker level wire lengths, channel imbalances of 2 to 3db, wire gauge difference from one channel vs the other (18 gauge vs 12 gauge), It seemed no matter how many audio myths we incorporated into the testing that were supposed to destroy the audio, it was never found to actually matter at all. The most amazing thing is that we tested each audio myth separately and then we did them all together! Having three different supposedly easy to tell items all going on at once, yet still couldn't be picked out in tests. 95% of what people think matters, does not matter at all. Speakers and room are where all the magic happens. So rightfully the manufacturers started offering room compensation with Dirac and YPAO etc. Millions have been spent on exactly what it needs to be spent on. This is why Amir has different levels in his testing. The Excellent level is way, way beyond what is necessary unless you just want the absolute best available. The very good category is actually fantastic in use with no audible differences. So you end up with a nice wide selection of product that comes in all different prices. You then pick the features, and power level you want. Amir has really made getting very high quality equipment rated so you can find the well engineered gems that may cost 40% less than another piece with the same performance. Amir has advanced the the audio arena a lot, and debunked so much audiophoolery he should be in an audio "Hall of Fame" in my opinion. Amir is really that good for the "common man" on the street trying to buy decent equipment without going bankrupt! I was very surprised when Pres Trump didn't pick Amir as VP!!!!

 

[Jim Taylor]

Anir is really that good for the "common man" on the street trying to buy decent equipment without going bankrupt!

That's the real purpose of this site. Not arguing with "audiophiles", just helpful information for the hundreds of millions of people out there who might be looking for decent audio equipment to enjoy music.

Sometimes, people can't see the forest for the trees.

Jim

 

[Spkrdctr]

That's the real purpose of this site. Not arguing with "audiophiles", just helpful information for the hundreds of millions of people out there who might be looking for decent audio equipment to enjoy music.

Sometimes, people can't see the forest for the trees.

Jim

Great summary Jim. The problem is that after being on this site for some years now, it is amazing how the snake oil industry just keeps going even though all of their lunacy has been proven wrong. The problem is not near enough people read ASR reviews. We should have millions of members on ASR. If I was a manufacturer I would make a deal with Amir where I could get an ASR approved sticker on my amp or receiver (whatever) just like they have ATMOS, Dirac and other stuff on each piece of equipment. Then a buyer could buy with confidence the unit was tested and there were no glaring problems at all. It is a well engineered piece that does what it claims to do. So If Amir got $5 for every sticker times 1 million pieces of equipment sold, he would net a cool 5 million without having to leave his AP555. Easiest money he would ever make AND help the Audio world kill off snake oil. I hate snake oil.

 

[Rick Sykora]

I was checking up on the CSS Typhon speaker and discovered Jay Lee has close to 100K youtube subscribers. Popularity is not everything but those are some impressive numbers for a younger reviewer. Still is not Robinson's 380K subscribers. The younger crowd wants video and podcasts. ASR has great technical depth but also can be intimidating for many lay people. Maybe a Young Amir show would help.

As for dumbing down, Danny’s latest youtube is how to determine how much NoRez to buy. Was expecting some discussion of when it may be needed acoustically or not, but was just how to measure the physical material. As you might guess with Danny, more is better as more NoRez sales pad his wallet more!

 

[Todd68]

Blind test have limited use in audio IMO. You need to live with a change for a while to decide if it’s better, even room treatments and positioning of treatments. Trying to select a pair of speakers this way may not work so well. If you preferred a certain speaker model tor example, it could have been hyped highs or extra bass, but in the long run the sound may cause fatigue or you wont want to listen as often. If you have a setup and you tend to just want to listen to music instead of focusing on perceived flaws, then you done good, regardless how you got there.

 

[JaapD]

Blind test have limited use in audio IMO. You need to live with a change for a while to decide if it’s better, even room treatments and positioning of treatments. Trying to select a pair of speakers this way may not work so well. If you preferred a certain speaker model tor example, it could have been hyped highs or extra bass, but in the long run the sound may cause fatigue or you wont want to listen as often. If you have a setup and you tend to just want to listen to music instead of focusing on perceived flaws, then you done good, regardless how you got there.

Imho blind tests are there primarily to identify whether there are any differences. It’s not so much about one's personal taste.



Cheers.

 

[Rick Sykora]

In his latest episode, Danny rips into a Monitor Audio center channel and significantly lowers the midrange crossover point without regard to whether the driver might have power handling or distortion issues when crossed lower. I just realized that he never seems to listen to his results either.

 

[ta240]

I was checking up on the CSS Typhon speaker and discovered Jay Lee has close to 100K youtube subscribers. Popularity is not everything but those are some impressive numbers for a younger reviewer. Still is not Robinson's 380K subscribers. The younger crowd wants video and podcasts. ASR has great technical depth but also can be intimidating for many lay people. Maybe a Young Amir show would help.

As for dumbing down, Danny’s latest youtube is how to determine how much NoRez to buy. Was expecting some discussion of when it may be needed acoustically or not, but was just how to measure the physical material. As you might guess with Danny, more is better as more NoRez sales pad his wallet more!

Feelings are fun, science is difficult. Selling dreams is easier than passing on knowledge.

But in all seriousness passion and excitement are more fun to watch than attacks and tearing down. Videos that counter the likes of Robinson tend to just run negative. So far I haven't seen a mix of technical knowledge and the comedic ability to make fun of someone or something without seeming to be just mean and negative.

I will be the first to admit though that I must have no idea what is good, because the more popular the people like Jay and Robinson get, the more they seem to make my skin crawl. So most people must really like that.
I guess I just don't like the absolute salesman vibe, while some people don't have a problem with it. I tend to leave stores and car lots when I encounter people like them. Guttenberg is what I consider a fun salesman.

There area a lot of people with deep knowledge of audio but knowing something and being able to teach or inform others about it are two different things. Especially when dealing with those that have no background in the area and aren't interested in going through a long and painful class in it.

There needs to be a Beakman's World version of the technical side Or even an Alton Brown of audio.

 

[DSJR]

Blind test have limited use in audio IMO. You need to live with a change for a while to decide if it’s better, even room treatments and positioning of treatments. Trying to select a pair of speakers this way may not work so well. If you preferred a certain speaker model tor example, it could have been hyped highs or extra bass, but in the long run the sound may cause fatigue or you wont want to listen as often. If you have a setup and you tend to just want to listen to music instead of focusing on perceived flaws, then you done good, regardless how you got there.

Actually and in my personal experience as well as the results of countless dems over the years, you don't need 'a while' to decide if it's 'better' or not... One can tell in seconds in a sighted dem and longer listening/playing with the gear most often confirmed the initial impression and I was NEVER in the market to flog boxes to unsuspecting punters knowing they'd be back in six months to buy the latest fad (that's all done on the forums now with often suspect used gear I believe).

A good weekend of listening is usually the most that anyone should need and believe me, the tactile and visual aspects of a piece of gear matter most here, rather than the 'sound' which is soon adjusted to I feel. We had very few things returned and clients came back adding to their sound rigs, so we must have been doing something right (I hope).

 

[kemmler3D]

The problem is that after being on this site for some years now, it is amazing how the snake oil industry just keeps going even though all of their lunacy has been proven wrong.

There are analogies for this everywhere in culture, around the world, from homeopathy, to flat earth beliefs, to end-times prophecies and other religious stuff, conspiracy theories from A-Z that lack a single shred of hard evidence, political nonsense, magic ionizing copper bracelets, palmistry, astrology, etc.

All of it has been disproven 1000 times over in 1000 ways.

The problem is not lack of proof, it never has been. The problem is beliefs clearly run on something other than proof. If we are to change wrong and harmful beliefs, we need to try a different approach - but what?

Those of us who (try to) base our beliefs on fact have a major weakness - we generally can't even see the other pillars of belief to attack. We disprove something and then sit there wondering how anyone could still believe it.

 

[Todd68]

I understand what this site is about. And it’s probably the best one to learn meaningful technical information. And you all try and save newcomers from being possibly conned. The thing is you won’t change the views of “the other side” they truly believe in what the hear either real or imagined. So the arguments and disagreements will never end.

And yes, many people change speakers and equipment regularly. Maybe looking for an improvement or there’s flaws they didn’t notice or bother them till they spent plenty of time with the gear.

Anyway, most people would have been 100% satisfied with my system with KEF R3 I tried out. We “both sides” are a small percentage that are so critical about sound quality, we’re probably half nuts if you think about, it’s a strange hobby to most, but I enjoy it nonetheless.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Feelings are fun, science is difficult. Selling dreams is easier than passing on knowledge.

Jim

 

[Jeff M.]

So I know am late to the party but, am kinda stuck where Danny is in terms of new ways of measuring and building speakers. So a few weeks ago we had a professional speaker installer come in and look at our sound system set and the sound board and all the amps and so on. I got to talking to him and I said how come you can’t replace the speakers in the speaker enclosure being used and up date the wire and crossovers in side the enclosure? and Also running new speaker wire? The installer told me 20 years ago they use to build and make their owe cabinets and put drivers in them and test them and so on. He told me everything is DSP and I need to get with the times and No one does that anymore it’s out dated. The only thing they do to help the Enclosure is spray on this coating to the out side of the boxes that dampens the sound. He also said it was a lot of work back then. He said our system is from 1982. It’s really only 22 years old. So basically be honest how I took it From him was that am an HI Fi Dinosaur and the times has passed me by. I just like the learning and hands on aspect of building my owe speakers and cables and so on. Plus some of the prices is just to steep for me still. So the reason I asked him if we are going to replace the drivers was that’s what we did that to our outside football sound system. The speaker drivers were blown and we replaced them and they lasted 20 years. Thanks for reading my long post and yes I enjoy Diy Audio. An average guy just enjoy the diy Hobby. Jeff

 

[Somafunk]

New audio unleashed podcast/discussion regarding measurement of speakers and a reply to Amirs post on previous podcast

 

[NTK]

I listened to about half of it and I had reached my limit. I must have to say that some of the errors that these guys had made are so fundamental that I found shocking. Aren't these people supposed to have decades of experience? Here is an example. The YT transcript is shown below (those inside [brackets] are my corrections):

29:38​

things that I want to get to but this one first is I have to admit I'm a little confused um what prompted this​

29:45​

this comment from Amir he says as to Harmon [Harman] they have measured speakers with the arrival of Dr tul [Toole] with CA 2034 style​

29:53​

measurements it is their protocol that got ratified as CA 2034 so to say that​

29:59​

they measured speakers before there was CA 2034 makes no sense their spinorama​

30:05​

was CA 2034 he's completely missing the point my point there was that all that​

30:12​

measurement was done with equipment that is more primitive than a clipple [Klippel] okay and people are deriding Danny for using​

30:18​

a Cleo instead of a clipple [Klippel] right but the Harmon [Harman] measure all that harm and research was done and the and the the uh​

30:26​

Canadian research before it was done with with gear that is no more advanced​

30:31​

than a Cleo and perhaps in some cases less Advanced actually definitely in some cases less Advanced and yeah so​

30:38​

that's not what we're saying what we're saying is you know the fact there's a new piece of gear out there doesn't​

30:44​

invalidate all that stuff and all the all the research we have was done with much more primitive gear than a clipple [Klippel]​

30:50​

okay so I think he just missed the point there we we know that's what we were saying it's like CTA 2034 was done with​

30:58​

primitive gear and that's what all the the science he's using was all done with​

31:04​

much more primitive gear than he has yeah yeah finally he says Rick is super​

31:09​

knowledgeable about speakers their measurements and design he is my expert DIY speaker Builder it's an appeal to​

​

They are claiming that the NRC Canada research and the Harman measurements using CTA-2034 techniques were done with "primitive" measurement gears (relative to the Klippel NFS), so Danny Richie using the Cleo Pocket was no different.

How could they have missed that the fact that the measurements made at NRC Canada and Harman were full spins all taken in calibrated anechoic chambers that cost many times the asking price of a Klippel NFS! And Richie's measurements were comparable? And these 2 guys completely overlooked this difference?

 

[Beave]

Brandolini's Law. Fighting bs online is a Sisyphean task.

 

[amirm]

They are claiming that the NRC Canada research and the Harman measurements using CTA-2034 techniques were done with "primitive" measurement gears (relative to the Klippel NFS), so Danny Richie using the Cleo Pocket was no different.

It is stunning, isn't it? Even though I specifically made the point that the acquisition device, i.e. the digitizer of microphone signal, is of no importance, he goes back to that as being the differentiator with Klippel. He doesn't realize that taking 72 measurements in anechoic measurement at NRC was the major innovation by Dr. Toole and crew to find measurements that predicted listener preference. And that a gated measurement at a few angles doesn't remotely do that.

Generating high resolution measurements of speakers in proper manner should be celebrated. Instead, folks are trying to defend the old ways because saying otherwise may impinge negatively on that reputation.

Finally, I can't believe he is making excuses for this measurement of Danny's design:

He claims this is the old trick of making tiny toy speakers have more bass by boosting upper region! If so, what is the reason behind that massive dip? If he has experience with speaker design then he should know that there is a fundamental flaw here.

 

[Rick Sykora]

As many of us are aware, there can be more than one path to a good answer. Some are trying to portray ASR members as unfeeling automatons. However, asking alleged experts for evidence to support their claims is fundamental to science (and other fact-based pursuits). If am newer to a field, one looks to experts in that field, but even experts can disagree. Without evidence, one cannot judge who may be correct or incorrect.

Keeping an open mind is essential to determining the truth. Without evidence, assuming that a supposed authority can do or has done something is worship rather than science. Wishful thinking rarely ensures a positive outcome in a technical domain such as audio. All Amir and I have asked of Danny is to provide evidence. We are placing no bounds if others want to believe he is a capable designer. Personally, as Danny has failed to provide the most basic measures, am skeptical. ASR has published positive GR reviews as well as negative ones. So, the evidence is here for anyone disciplined enough to consider his work more broadly and draw their own conclusions.