Danny Richie's latest...

[Scrivs]

I wouldn’t recommend the NX OTICAS unless you have the room, the work best 5 or more feet from the front wall. That tweeter is the best I ever heard, plenty of detail, dynamics and never fatigued from listening.

One goal of the design is excellent imaging and soundstage, and when setup properly, they do this exceptionally. So despite the overall flaws the speakers are very enjoyable. And decently high sensitivity is also a plus.

What speakers are you involved in designing? I’d be interested in hearing a design of yours.

Kudos for sticking around, and actually listening to and (sounds like) absorbing what’s being shared with you Quite frequently, it unfortunately goes sideways, and new folks oftentimes come with emotional attachments to their gear, favorite YT talking head, or perhaps looking to get some of their biases confirmed. It gets old watching Amir, and folks like Rick, for example, take the time and really try to convey why speaker X is a dogs breakfast, the engineering trade offs, why directivity is so important, etc, etc, etc. Only to have “new member x” act like my nephew does when his diaper’s full of baby-shit From my own perspective, it’s such a waste of a learning opportunity, squandering such a great resource, always offered in good faith. To me, it’s as frustrating as it is bizarre, as quite often it gets personal. Defences are up before they finish their first post. I really hate to put it this way, but science, and learning about the physical world (what an amazing thing to receive for nada) isn’t as important to some as getting that positive purchase reinforcement I suspect many come here looking for. It blows my mind how disproportionately at odds some peeps get when the expected response from Amir and the Cabal isn’t sunshine, unicorns, rainbows, and “everyone gets a prize,” mentality that seems to be so pervasive these days. It’s NEVER personal, it’s quite the opposite, I love how freely, and willingly knowledge is shared here. This place is a gem. Thanks for sticking around Todd, and actually listening. I learn things through you this way(that there’s at least one more reasonable human out there to offset some of the Truth=hurt feelings/everything’s personal crew. Come back, and come often brotha. In the end it’s only Hi-fi, but man, it’s the things you learn, and people you meet on the way. Truth, honesty, and a rational approach make me feel just an iota warmer inside

Apologies for the verbal diarrhea, it’s 0317 HST, and I have to attend a One-year-old’s birthday in a few hrs, not happy. There’s probably gonna be sunshine ,unicorns, and rainbows there, and everyone’s gonna get a prize just for “participating”. Goddamnit, I’m starting to sound like my father did

 

[Petronius]

I wish to state that I intended no offense to any whom I have inadvertently offended. I learned a long time ago to never denegrate another man's wife, dog, car or in this case,
speakers. BUT there is a special place in Hell for those who would manipulate data to further their own gains.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Danny recently called on manufactures to send him gear to recommend (or not).

Ofc, nobody else is clamoring to be sent equipment.

 

[Doodski]

Danny recently called on manufactures to send him gear to recommend (or not).

Ofc, nobody else is clamoring to be sent equipment. ;-)

Gee... Who needs a team of engineers, a cabinet factory, management plus office workers when Danny might solve everything himself?

 

[TurtlePaul]

Danny recently called on manufactures to send him gear to recommend (or not).

Ofc, nobody else is clamoring to be sent equipment. ;-)

Must not want to send in equipment when the first thing Ritchie will say is that they don’t know about tube connectors, norez and expensive resistors and you should get the $200 upgrade.

 

[amirm]

Add that he only measured the woofer from 200 Hz and above!

This comment was picked up by one of the long time reviewer and measurement experts, Brent Butterworth in one of his podcasts. I was saddened to see them defending the above practice due to not understanding the full context of what Danny sells and promote.

Here is a comment I wrote under the above video:

While there is truism in a number of things Brent mentions, there are some wrong assumptions. Danny has never shown a ground plane measurement much less stitch them to the gated measurements. The latter as I am sure you know, has highly reduced resolution even above 200 Hz. When you are in the business of selling speakers as Danny is, you better show the full response including bass. Not doing so results in decades of selling a speaker with this disastrous bass response: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...v123-gr-research-x-voce-speaker-review.49563/

And no, it is not about acquisition device. We all understand you can use anything to measure a speaker. But you well know that room reflections corrupt bass response so you must either use anechoic room, stitched response, or Klippel Near-field scanner with field separation. Danny doesn't use any of this so to claim that he is doing what Harman, etc. are doing is just wrong. Go ahead and look at the response of any speakers he sells. You won't find measurements in bass. Where else have you found a company showing speaker measurements that are just gated and start at 200 Hz? If you are a hobbyist then it is one thing. But if you claim as Danny does that he is the best there is as a speaker designer but doesn't even know what Klippel NFS does (he thinks it is an averaging device), nor understand the importance of full frequency response, then this is a big issue. If he can't make full range measurements, then he should get an agency to do it. Not to justify that one doesn't need it and you backing him. It is like rating a TV but not include color red!

His competitor, Ascend Acoustics saw a poor measurements that I did of one of his speakers and instead of complaining like Danny does, went and bought a Klippel NFS and is now producing world class speakers.

As to Harman, they have measured speakers with arrival of Dr. Toole with CEA-2034 style measurements. It is their protocol that got ratified as CEA-2034! So to say that they measured speakers before there was CEA-2034, makes no sense. Their spinorama was CEA-2034.

As far as listening, I listen to every speaker and headphone I review. But it is not just some random listening tests producing nonsense subjective outcomes. I use the measurements to develop equalization that lets me test deviations in frequency response. This is a powerful tool to determine audibility of those impairments. For electronics, such frequency response deviations do not exist so expecting me to do sighted listening of them makes no sense.

Finally, Rick is super knowledgeable about speakers, their measurements and design. He is my expert DIY speaker builder and evaluator. He knows everything you said and then some. I suggest not throwing rocks at people before learning who they are and what they know. What he criticizes about Danny's work is identical to what I have said and per above, has substantial weight.

 

[Galliardist]

This comment was picked up by one of the long time reviewer and measurement experts, Brent Butterworth in one of his podcasts. I was saddened to see them defending the above practice due to not understanding the full context of what Danny sells and promote.

Here is a comment I wrote under the above video:

While there is truism in a number of things Brent mentions, there are some wrong assumptions. Danny has never shown a ground plane measurement much less stitch them to the gated measurements. The latter as I am sure you know, has highly reduced resolution even above 200 Hz. When you are in the business of selling speakers as Danny is, you better show the full response including bass. Not doing so results in decades of selling a speaker with this disastrous bass response: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...v123-gr-research-x-voce-speaker-review.49563/

And no, it is not about acquisition device. We all understand you can use anything to measure a speaker. But you well know that room reflections corrupt bass response so you must either use anechoic room, stitched response, or Klippel Near-field scanner with field separation. Danny doesn't use any of this so to claim that he is doing what Harman, etc. are doing is just wrong. Go ahead and look at the response of any speakers he sells. You won't find measurements in bass. Where else have you found a company showing speaker measurements that are just gated and start at 200 Hz? If you are a hobbyist then it is one thing. But if you claim as Danny does that he is the best there is as a speaker designer but doesn't even know what Klippel NFS does (he thinks it is an averaging device), nor understand the importance of full frequency response, then this is a big issue. If he can't make full range measurements, then he should get an agency to do it. Not to justify that one doesn't need it and you backing him. It is like rating a TV but not include color red!

His competitor, Ascend Acoustics saw a poor measurements that I did of one of his speakers and instead of complaining like Danny does, went and bought a Klippel NFS and is now producing world class speakers.

As to Harman, they have measured speakers with arrival of Dr. Toole with CEA-2034 style measurements. It is their protocol that got ratified as CEA-2034! So to say that they measured speakers before there was CEA-2034, makes no sense. Their spinorama was CEA-2034.

As far as listening, I listen to every speaker and headphone I review. But it is not just some random listening tests producing nonsense subjective outcomes. I use the measurements to develop equalization that lets me test deviations in frequency response. This is a powerful tool to determine audibility of those impairments. For electronics, such frequency response deviations do not exist so expecting me to do sighted listening of them makes no sense.

Finally, Rick is super knowledgeable about speakers, their measurements and design. He is my expert DIY speaker builder and evaluator. He knows everything you said and then some. I suggest not throwing rocks at people before learning who they are and what they know. What he criticizes about Danny's work is identical to what I have said and per above, has substantial weight.

Good job you posted it here as well. There is only one comment under that video now, and it's just an ad hominem attack on ASR.

Sometimes I think you should just ditch the forum or restrict membership to those with a given level of expertise. I'm sure your message is getting lost in a wealth of less well written and informed forum posts... like, for example, a lot of mine

 

[Jeromeof]

Strange I posted a comment on that YouTube video about them removing @amirm post and they are claiming they never say a post against that video:

 

[Ageve]

It was probably removed automatically, since it includes a URL. It's the default setting.

 

[Somafunk]

This comment was picked up by one of the long time reviewer and measurement experts, Brent Butterworth in one of his podcasts. I was saddened to see them defending the above practice due to not understanding the full context of what Danny sells and promote.

I subscribe to that podcast and whilst listening to it a couple of days ago I wondered…..”I bet this discussion pops up on the GR thread”

 

[Somafunk]

It was probably removed automatically, since it includes a URL. It's the default setting.

Yeah, YouTube automatically removes any comment containing URL’s

 

[Ktacos]

Who cares? All that matters to me is my NX OTICAS out perform any speakers I ever owned, no eq used either. So Danny is a legit speaker designer in my book.

Your speakers sounding good means you should ignore proper driver analysis with other speakers? What you say makes no sense.

 

[amirm]

I reposted the comment with youtube link this time.

 

[MattHooper]

I was listening to this podcast today and I wondered if anybody would comment.

I’m very curious as to audio unleashed response to your comment.

 

[beagleman]

Who cares? All that matters to me is my NX OTICAS out perform any speakers I ever owned, no eq used either. So Danny is a legit speaker designer in my book.

Your comments do not address the specifics of what we are discussing.
That is a more a generality that implies your subjective opinion of a speaker that Danny R. Designed quantifies everything he does as honest, meaningful and great.


No one is saying he can not design a good speaker, but more the details of his overall "Speaker UPGRADE" products are questionable in some ways that bear discussion and a closer look is all.

 

[beagleman]

As have mentioned before, Danny's upgrade videos are hype to generate youtube hits and are pseudoscience. Would not put much faith in any of it. He manipulates scaling to create his typical narrative of how bad the target speaker is and how it needs his upgrading. I could go on at length but let's just start with the initial failure to baseline against known measurements. For this speaker, JBL supplies much more data than most manufacturers AND states the conditions. Does Danny use it? No, and he flails around guessing at a measurement axis when it is stated in the specs....

"The reference measurement microphone position is located perpendicular to the center line of the mid and high frequency transducers, at the point 55 mm (2.2 in) below the center of the tweeter diaphragm"

After this wasted time, he does his usual misleading measurements and here is the initial result compared to JBL's...

View attachment 379160

Here I have plotted on a standard 50 dB scale (rather than Danny's usual 25 dB scale). I have adjusted his plot to overlay the JBL supplied data. At this point. does Danny question measurement conditions or whether the speaker might be broken? No, it is just poorly designed and needs his upgrade kit! So, rather than try some eq, let's rip out the drivers and design a whole new crossover!  Even when the speaker measures well, he is often replacing parts for the sake of alleged "next level performance". Strange he provides measurements as a weapon but supplies none for some of his alleged improvements. He recently did another No-Rez promo video and there is not a single spec or measurement to illustrate its applicability or effectiveness.

Anyway, seems you already figured out the bottom line with regard to Danny. Hope you get to enjoy the long holiday weekend!

It is like he knows enough for sure to convince some, or even many, but not enough to really debate what is wrong with what he does.

Nothing seems definitive and it seems more like a rushed circus side show to sell tube connectors and high priced caps, than to provide a service, no matter how flawed in key ways.

A service would simply have a paid schematic, and his resultant measurements.

Not $600.00 of parts "Included" .....

 

[Rick Sykora]

Thanks for the kind words @amirm!

Your post nicely states the facts that the podcast missed. To clarify a bit more, agree CLIO has a fine legacy, but my understanding is that Danny uses a very old version of it. On the Directiva project, CLIO was not a consideration as the team was already using ARTA and REW. Adding your Klippel measurements and Kimmo's VituixCAD we likely met or exceeded CLIO without needing to buy their products. As am sure you would agree, for many things in engineering there can be more than one path to get a good result.

Anyway, please pardon me while I go back to listening to frequency sweeps. They sound so much better than all the music I have heard over the last few decades!

 

[beagleman]

So how’s that affect you or this forum? Everyone in the hobby knows that ASR rejects this kinda stuff. Have you ever looked at prices for high end connectors? Though $50 isn’t cheap for four connectors, you could waste a lot more.

Because Danny wants it both ways.

He can ridicule others, and how they do things but he wants to be totally immune from ridicule.
Its the "Way" he does things. The attitude and know it all demeanor, when in many circumstances he is often the one with lesser knowledge.

Mostly the "Hey I know it all", when in reality he does not. He sells snake oil, and exaggerates a LOT, and does it with a condescending style of "Friendly" Youtube videos, where the friendly chatty guy demeanor is all just a way to Sell you up on Tube connectors and high priced caps.

It is a bit of a circus side show thing mixed with equal parts of actual knowledge.
He knows enough to know he is peddling snake oil.
If that makes sense...??

....Some call it Ego, Some call it Narcissism...some call it self confidence.....
I have watched most of his videos, out of interest in speakers mostly and Danny is never wrong.

 

[Todd68]

Your speakers sounding good means you should ignore proper driver analysis with other speakers? What you say makes no sense.

I thought his reasoning behind not measuring below 200hz is because the room has too much influence. And you can’t really change a speakers lower range response much without redoing the cabinet design which would be a complete waste of time and not cost effective. Or the drivers themselves are not very good to start, it’s mostly budget speakers people send in. I think he try’s to find obvious anomalies in a speaker that can be improved with crossover changes.

As far as his own designs, he explains that in a video. In short, He has enough experience with his own drivers to accurately predict the lower end response as he measured them when he had a facility to measure the lower range. Though his one center channel that you guys like to ridicule didn’t far well with that approach.

I think even some major speaker companies use higher quality crossover parts in their expensive top line models, no? If it makes a difference is up for debate, but can’t hurt. I wasn’t pushed into getting the parts upgrade when I ordered my NX Otica kit, I did it because of prior positive experiences with upgrading budget parts in an amplifier, just a personal experience right or wrong I’m sticking to what I experienced, this is just a hobby anyway so to each their own. No need to constantly complain and argue about “the other sides” approach. Just my two cents, I’m prepared to be cut to pieces, go ahead it won’t hurt my feelings.

 

[Mart68]

.

I think even some major speaker companies use higher quality crossover parts in their expensive top line models, no? If it makes a difference is up for debate, but can’t hurt

They do that because the market is guided by mysticism not facts so buyers expect it. It's demonstrable that they don't measure or sound any different.

Whether it hurts to do it or not, well, it won't make the speaker sound worse. But every extra dollar spent on the crossover is $10 on the retail price so it can add up quite fast. You can end up with a situation where corners are cut on things that do matter so they can spend on things the marketing department want.

Most speakers have a set retail price before the design work even begins. So where do you want that $200 in component budget spent? Drivers and cabinets or fancy capacitors?