Danny Richie's latest...

[voodooless]

1. The speaker design was poor from start.

Yup, see here the Stereophile measurements of an older version:

EgglestonWorks Andra loudspeaker Measurements part 2 | Stereophile.com

Predicting how these three nearfield responses will sum at the listening position is difficult; shown to the left of fig.4 is my best guesstimate, with the acoustic phase and path-length differences taken into account. The Andra's output appears to peak up slightly at 70Hz, then slowly rolls...

www.stereophile.com

 

[amirm]

Good grief:

Whoever buys them must not want all of their music heard....

 

[JSmith]

He at least seems to believe what he believes, even if he is wrong often~!

Yep, Danny believes his own BS.


JSmith

 

[Penelinfi]

I wonder if such speakers also have a fill in to the sides that creates a less glarey sound with "depth" due to the later reflection sound in that region.

I've fiddled with speakers before, and ended up with a small BMR and micro dome tweeter, that was out of phase. It just sounded nicer that way to me.

I like my scientifically accurate speakers, but also enjoy ones that aren't . Of course, $34k to create a speaker that follows many scientific methods, except the response, may leave some people wondering. Expensive speakers also tend to have more markup imo.

 

[DSJR]

Maybe nothing to do with it, but I'm not the only bod in their late 60s with reduced hearing acuity up-top, coupled with an increased sensitivity to harshness. Having a deep mid kHz suckout (right where my ears bomb out, so useless for me anyway), may help the older buyer to listen for longer (PMC, some Pro-Acs and B&W seem to do similar if not as severely).

I heard some lower priced Revel floor-standers a few years back, driven by Primare. Very clean and clear, but almost 'clinical' perhaps and nothing like as 'encompassing' as a set of JBL 4367s set up in an opposite corner. The top domestic Dynaudios I've heard subsequently at my local dealer take it too far, removing the 'body' in the tone, yet not being really what I'd call 'hear-through' as their far cheaper Focus 50 actives appeared to do with a similarly 'cold' balance.

By all means, get a flat on axis response and the best off-axis behaviour you can - and then start to LISTEN to the end result. Is the tweeter 'barking' a bit 'cos it's crossed over a bit too low? Does dispersion suffer hugely if the crossover frequency is raised a bit to improve tweeter subjective performance and if so, what can happen in different rooms - and so on and so on. Even the best designers LISTEN to their products, I'm sure... Maybe those speakers with deep ~5kH region response dips are used in those (expensive) mostly glass-walled rooms which can have nasty reflections at these frequencies which 'flatter' speakers would smear up in subjectively?

 

[ahofer]

Maybe nothing to do with it, but I'm not the only bod in their late 60s with reduced hearing acuity up-top, coupled with an increased sensitivity to harshness. Having a deep mid kHz suckout (right where my ears bomb out, so useless for me anyway), may help the older buyer to listen for longer (PMC, some Pro-Acs and B&W seem to do similar if not as severely).

I heard some lower priced Revel floor-standers a few years back, driven by Primare. Very clean and clear, but almost 'clinical' perhaps and nothing like as 'encompassing' as a set of JBL 4367s set up in an opposite corner. The top domestic Dynaudios I've heard subsequently at my local dealer take it too far, removing the 'body' in the tone, yet not being really what I'd call 'hear-through' as their far cheaper Focus 50 actives appeared to do with a similarly 'cold' balance.

By all means, get a flat on axis response and the best off-axis behaviour you can - and then start to LISTEN to the end result. Is the tweeter 'barking' a bit 'cos it's crossed over a bit too low? Does dispersion suffer hugely if the crossover frequency is raised a bit to improve tweeter subjective performance and if so, what can happen in different rooms - and so on and so on. Even the best designers LISTEN to their products, I'm sure... Maybe those speakers with deep ~5kH region response dips are used in those (expensive) mostly glass-walled rooms which can have nasty reflections at these frequencies which 'flatter' speakers would smear up in subjectively?

EQ is a more economical and flexible solution, though.

 

[RickS]

While not defending a pricey speaker that does not measure up, would point out that Danny does simply reverse the tweeter polarity (on back of speaker?) and gets a flatter response.

Yes, the Eggleston response still looks ragged (and should be better) but remember to look at Danny's scaling. It is manipulated to make the speaker look even worse than it is. As have mentioned before, regardless of his apparent experience with crossover design, these upgrades are mainly internet fodder.

If you have this speaker, suggest the tweeter polarity swap and some equalization.

 

[RickS]

Yup, see here the Stereophile measurements of an older version:

EgglestonWorks Andra loudspeaker Measurements part 2 | Stereophile.com

Predicting how these three nearfield responses will sum at the listening position is difficult; shown to the left of fig.4 is my best guesstimate, with the acoustic phase and path-length differences taken into account. The Andra's output appears to peak up slightly at 70Hz, then slowly rolls...

www.stereophile.com

Note this review is for the original Andra model, Danny is modding an Andra 3 (circa 2009). The Andra 3 got glowing reviews by Soundstage and Audioholics at the time, but found no measurements posted for them. So more than the owner was impressed by the sound. The bass is claimed to be very impressive so could be very distracting for a audiophile who only had his eyes and ears to rely upon.

 

[voodooless]

Note this review is for the original Andra model,

Yes, I said as much:

See here the Stereophile measurements of an older version

But no matter, it still matches up quite well, see here both overlaid (Dannys and the Stereophile averaged responses):

I'm pretty sure this new version has the same flaws as the old one...

 

[beagleman]

Yes, I said as much:

But no matter, it still matches up quite well, see here both overlaid (Dannys and the Stereophile averaged responses):

View attachment 470804
I'm pretty sure this new version has the same flaws as the old one...

Not saying way off, but have often noticed Danny seems to get a reduced treble response on many measurements he does.

You graphs, while well averaged to a point, still show a noticeable change of maybe 5db or so in the 8-20khz range.

I chalk it up to fairly bad design COMBINED with Danny being off a bit also.

 

[beagleman]

Good grief:

Whoever buys them must not want all of their music heard....

This appears on the surface to be a well implemented BBC "Canyon" as opposed to the more well known "Dip"

 

[RickS]

The Encore Extreme offer seems to target folks that have excess income to spend. Danny’s spiel suggests that some if you have a speaker like the Magicos, you should compare his little speaker to them. Of course he knows they cannot compete with the bass from much larger speakers. So perhaps he is hoping they get too lazy busy to return them?

He does mention that he has sold 3000 of the original Encores. The design is about 20 years old. That means an average of a paltry 150 per year. Does really illustrate how niche a market GR serves.

 

[Ropeburn]

To be honest, I'd be quite a happy camper if my little business sold 150 per year of one model. I bet, so is he.

 

[Ktacos]

if you have a speaker like the Magicos, you should compare his little speaker to them.

And I have my own island where I have trouble figuring out where to put my 100 porches because it's already filled up with 100 lamborghini's.

Making stuff up is fun

 

[kyuu]

To be honest, I'd be quite a happy camper if my little business sold 150 per year of one model. I bet, so is he.

It's way better business than my ebay account does!

 

[Webator]

Hello all, first time posting here. Interesting topics!

However, this all seems very one-sided to me. I know less about speaker design and measurement than probably most of you all, and certainly less then Amir (or Danny) – and I will not comment on this Ascend modification. But: Has anybody here actually listened to any of Danny`s mods (to avoid the term upgrade) or are you judging them just from measurements other people performed? I am far from being susceptible for snake oil or even a Danny fanboy, but at least I can talk about real-world experience.

I have a (now vintage) B&W 802 Matrix speaker that had developed a fault in the stock crossover. So I went and ordered a replacement crossover from US based specialist who builds crossovers with 100% stock design, but no PCB and better parts (no boutique stuff, though). Out of curiosity I repaired the stock crossover with new stock parts, so I could compare. The upgrade won, although the tonality remained largely unchanged, unsurprisingly. But it was still missing something. As I had already thrown unreasonable amounts of money at these old speakers, I decided to go all in and ordered Danny`s upgrade when it became available – although Danny himself said (in the video) that there was little room for improvement. So I ended up with three crossovers for the same speaker, I even built an A/B comparison test rig, just for fun. Bottom line: Danny´s crossover won hands down, also with wife, children and friends in a blind test (they did not even know what I had changed when switching). Dynamics, imaging and resolution were clearly improved. Way beyond just being confirmation bias.

I had kept the stock crossovers to be able to revert to them and preserve the resale value, but went ahead and sold them. Not going back.

Does this mean every Danny mod will work? Absolutely not. Does it mean they CAN work, even though the measurements show little if any improvements? Absolutely. So condemning everything he does without ever having actually listened to the real thing is probably not the best way to go.


Edit 1: I know Danny does not listen to them himself, because he claims to know how it sounds - which is somewhat ridiculous.
Edit 2: Dannys crossover would not fit in the box, and he clearly had not tried to make it fit. So I had to go external, adding a lot of clutter...
Edit 3: So he does not put a lot of effort in such a upgrade project (the video probably takes up more time than the rest), which I can understand from a business point of view, but not as a paying enthusiast...

 

[PristineSound]

But: Has anybody here actually listened to any of Danny`s mods . . .


Edit 1: I know Danny does not listen to them himself, because he claims to know how it sounds - which is somewhat ridiculous.

Looks like you already answered your own question. But let me add to it: if I were buying a sports car for performance, surely I can't go by the specs alone, right? I need to drive it on a track to get the overall feel, how the machine and man perform as one on the track, yeah?

But would I even bother choose to pick a car with a published spec of 0-60mph in 7s? The answer is no.

In the case of Danny's mod, we have a factory original that does 0-60 in 4s, then Danny modded the engine and now it goes from 0-60 in 7s. So, do I need to test drive Danny's mod? My answer is no.

Edit 2: Dannys crossover would not fit in the box, and he clearly had not tried to make it fit. So I had to go external, adding a lot of clutter...

So not only he doesn't listen to his own mod, but he also doesn't even create a finished product?

Edit 3: So he does not put a lot of effort in such a upgrade project (the video probably takes up more time than the rest), which I can understand from a business point of view, but not as a paying enthusiast...

So he is selling a very expensive "upgrade" that he half assed?

 

[RickS]

Hello all, first time posting here. Interesting topics!

However, this all seems very one-sided to me. I know less about speaker design and measurement than probably most of you all, and certainly less then Amir (or Danny) – and I will not comment on this Ascend modification. But: Has anybody here actually listened to any of Danny`s mods (to avoid the term upgrade) or are you judging them just from measurements other people performed? I am far from being susceptible for snake oil or even a Danny fanboy, but at least I can talk about real-world experience.

I have a (now vintage) B&W 802 Matrix speaker that had developed a fault in the stock crossover. So I went and ordered a replacement crossover from US based specialist who builds crossovers with 100% stock design, but no PCB and better parts (no boutique stuff, though). Out of curiosity I repaired the stock crossover with new stock parts, so I could compare. The upgrade won, although the tonality remained largely unchanged, unsurprisingly. But it was still missing something. As I had already thrown unreasonable amounts of money at these old speakers, I decided to go all in and ordered Danny`s upgrade when it became available – although Danny himself said (in the video) that there was little room for improvement. So I ended up with three crossovers for the same speaker, I even built an A/B comparison test rig, just for fun. Bottom line: Danny´s crossover won hands down, also with wife, children and friends in a blind test (they did not even know what I had changed when switching). Dynamics, imaging and resolution were clearly improved. Way beyond just being confirmation bias.

I had kept the stock crossovers to be able to revert to them and preserve the resale value, but went ahead and sold them. Not going back.

Does this mean every Danny mod will work? Absolutely not. Does it mean they CAN work, even though the measurements show little if any improvements? Absolutely. So condemning everything he does without ever having actually listened to the real thing is probably not the best way to go.


Edit 1: I know Danny does not listen to them himself, because he claims to know how it sounds - which is somewhat ridiculous.
Edit 2: Dannys crossover would not fit in the box, and he clearly had not tried to make it fit. So I had to go external, adding a lot of clutter...
Edit 3: So he does not put a lot of effort in such a upgrade project (the video probably takes up more time than the rest), which I can understand from a business point of view, but not as a paying enthusiast...

Welcome to ASR!

If you know anything about ASR, it is a home for audio skepticism. You may be confident over Danny’s upgrade of your speakers, but our members will have many questions and will not be relevant to the Ascend review upgrade thread. So I moved your post to an existing GR thread. If you do not feel this is an appropriate thread, please start your own and will move again.

 

[amirm]

Has anybody here actually listened to any of Danny`s mods (to avoid the term upgrade) or are you judging them just from measurements other people performed?

Danny himself doesn't listen to the speaker, before or after! He relies on measurements that lack resolution. Such data can be used to fix gross errors in crossover. One has to verify however that other things have not gotten worse.

It is certainly possible that some of his mods work. I tested one that did. Whether yours is one is unknown without verification.