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Danny Richie's latest...
- Thread starter Neward Thelman
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You can get superbly accurate: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh120-ii-monitor-review.46362/
There is nothing Danny has built or modified that remotely approaches this level of accuracy. Danny doesn't use any modern tools to design and optimize a speaker. Nor does he believe in fundamental key to accuracy: DSP. His rooms have no DSP either which guarantees uneven frequency response. I am happy to go visit him once he provides measurements for his room so we can see if he has that right. If he doesn't, there is no reason to go.
MattHooper
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You can get superbly accurate: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh120-ii-monitor-review.46362/
There is nothing Danny has built or modified that remotely approaches this level of accuracy. Danny doesn't use any modern tools to design and optimize a speaker. Nor does he believe in fundamental key to accuracy: DSP. His rooms have no DSP either which guarantees uneven frequency response. I am happy to go visit him once he provides measurements for his room so we can see if he has that right. If he doesn't, there is no reason to go.
Those measurements are amazing!
I once had for a while the Waveform Mach Solo loudspeakers, which had been measured at a magazine, showing they were incredibly linear. I think the most linear they had measured to that point if I remember. (unfortunately that article is no longer available on the Internet as it was a very old review).
Anyway, driven by Bryston amplifiers they were very, very far from boring! They were thrilling!
That’s not in room response, I meant when the speakers are in a room and you’re at your listening position. I never said the most accurate speakers can’t sound good, I don’t think Danny did either. I guess the easiest way to get the most accurate sound, we would need studio monitors and DSP, and don’t forget room treatments.
Still doesn’t mean less accurate speakers can’t be just as satisfying or maybe more satisfying depending on the person’s hearing and personal preferences.
Still doesn’t mean less accurate speakers can’t be just as satisfying or maybe more satisfying depending on the person’s hearing and personal preferences.
Oh Danny absolutely did in that last video. He said two speakers with identical and excellent response can sound vastly different in sound stage, detail, etc. Which aggravates the first claim even more. I have listened to a number of accurate speakers in room and you couldn't wipe the smile off my face no matter how much you tried!
A proper speaker doesn't target such vagaries. And is no justification for saying such a speaker is excellent or in the case of Danny, the best there is. In the battle for the "best," you better bring the goods and receipts. Danny doesn't do either and just hands us boastful claims.
Not in scale and dynamics.
That’s what I was getting at, you could listen to speakers that measure perfectly, then listen to a pair that just measure mediocre. But due to aspects of sound like you mentioned, plus others like imaging and soundstage, you could very much prefer the worse measuring ones.
Agree you might have a preference and that is fine. Your supposition is that one might have to trade the better measuring speaker for a speaker that has other desirable qualities. These are not mutually exclusive qualities. We can measure differences between a KH120 and a Salon speaker. Yes, imaging and soundstage have influences that are not as easily characterized. This does not mean it is impossible to characterize them or we should stop trying.
Danny has argued not to measure speaker bass response because the room influences it. Well the room (volume, dimensions, speaker position, surface treatments, etc.) affects how speakers sound too. So if you extend Danny’s hypothesis, you should not measure at all because rooms are different. The human body is so much more complex than a speaker. Should I not measure its temperature, blood pressure or other tests to determine if it is functioning well or poorly? Yes, testing the human body can be overdone and some tests may be less meaningful or situational but does not mean we should forgo measurements that do help our understanding.
Just because we did not or could not easily measure speaker characteristics in the past does not mean that newer measurements are not useful. Measuring may not be perfect and am often asking what the measurements conditions were. But while some would keep us in the dark entirely because of greed or their own motivations, others spin tales to distract or mislead.
The problem is that those who criticize measurements offer no alternative for how to advance the state of the art in audio. If you prefer to count on them, that is your choice. If you start to count, you are now in the measurement camp. No promises that what you find will always be good but at least you will be better informed.
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I don't have "technical credibility" other than building speakers since the 1970s (T-S equations on a basic 4-function calculator) but:
I visited Danny on maybe 3 occasions, both before and after his move to the new(er) buildings. Simply a road trip since he is sort of local.
The visits were, well, unimpressive. I won't go into all the non-audio (expensive) hobbies he supports out of these buildings but he stores the raw drivers in a row of about a dozen shipping containers sitting in the Texas sun/heat outside the main barn. The actual speaker area is just a small walled off portion of the main barn. Just as an observation, he used Parts Express DuraTex over MDF as the kitchen countertops in the main house. Wow.
I have some spare sheets of NoRez in a closet from a X-LS Encore build about 10 years ago. I pulled them out the other day and the foam has completely decomposed and falling apart in chunks. I'm glad I no longer have those speakers, they wern't anything special other than the cost at the time ($200?). They're probably blowing chunks of NoRez out of the ports by now.
I haven't been back.
Why would you visit the second time then even a third time it was so bad? It’s a small business so I wouldn’t expect to be impressed with the operation. You built his cheapest kit and so you formed an opinion from that?
I meant impressed from listening to his setup with the Extreme speakers and OB subs. I guess it’s possible it’s nothing special and everyone who thought otherwise is just being nice cause Danny took em out for barbecue.
I built the complete A/V series first when it was his main offering (before OBs, ribbon tweeters, Tube Connector, etc), maybe 2000-ish. I'm a woodworker and was more interested in building the transmission line enclosures and learning to veneer large cabinets at the time. Then a 2nd set for a relative. They were a bargain at the time and actually sounded decent for the $. I still have the tower TLs (with chunks of decomposed NoRez falling out of the ports).
The X-LS Encores were just a drive-by curiosity because I go out that way every August for the Hotter 'n Hell bike ride. They weren't horrible, either, for the time frame Danny originally rescued them from AV-123. Remember, they were under $200 way back then.
I built another pair with the BG Neo ribbons (forget the name) and they were truly awful and I haven't been back since. Again, I was more interested in the woodworking aspect and relatively low parts cost. This was all well before the modern disdain for Danny.
Thanks for sharing!
I have a comparable history, except my "local" supplier was Parts Express (and sometimes Meniscus Audio). While was a great learning experience, except for some subwoofers, nothing I built was exceptional and so most of it has been sold or repurposed. My prior commercial experience is not all that different except for spending a lot more. Not unlike others am sure, I went through many iterations of brand name speakers (Dynaco, Mission, KEF, and Vandersteen to name a few). With one or two exceptions, would not recommend any of them to others, but I know more today than I did back then...
Along with building and listening to the X-LS Encore, this is why I do not recommend it despite a decent review here: It is an old design, and we simply know more today about good speaker design than we did back then. All GR's "better" component gold-plating does not change its age and only makes it less competitive versus today's designs. As you allude, it does not help that Danny started pushing more questionable products and earned him more disdain than seems he had in his earlier years. If I lived closer to him would likely have built more of his kits too.
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I really enjoy building my own gear and despite what others might think, can be good bang for the buck. That’s the main reason I bought the GR Research kits. I built some parts express kits, the Epique CBT 24 and a pair sealed Dayton audio subs. Those have good performance but not quite good enough to make me stop looking for something better.
With the GR kits even if outdated, I feel are good enough to not think about speaker upgrades anymore. Instead I try to learn more about room affects and treatments, and try to take the sound quality up a notch a little at a time.
With the GR kits even if outdated, I feel are good enough to not think about speaker upgrades anymore. Instead I try to learn more about room affects and treatments, and try to take the sound quality up a notch a little at a time.
Interesting, I love those NEO tweeters. Keep in mind I’m almost 60 years old and have hearing loss like most everyone my age. Maybe I can’t hear if it’s something wrong. Also they are planer magnetic and I think quite different from ribbons. I owned speakers with ribbons before. RAAL, a well respected brand, though I can’t remember exact model. They may have a tad more detail but I think less dynamic.
@TunaBug as you asked in another thread, above quote is from someone with long term experience with NoRez.
The new Norez just showed on my porch and can confirm it is very different (seems more like cheap packing foam) than the previous version. Will see shortly how it compares acoustically.
I guess I’ll know in ten years if the No Rez falls apart or not. My speakers and subs have it on panels you can see. The speakers have the original type and subs the new type.
Felt I should ensure I correctly represented Andrew Robinson's position so went to his YouTube channel and checked firsthand. I validated what I had said but struggled as he seems rather flippant overall (but acknowledge that many do not care about parts but only the end result). He also pontificates just as much about attention given to designer worship as much as speaker parts btw. I checked some of the reviews and was pleased to see that they do not appear to be censored (as Danny tends to do). I did catch a response from his partner about Danny's GR invite that I found the comments rather poignant...
I can be impressed by someone else's audio system but concluding that better speakers are why could be a major (and likely expensive mistake).
- Why should anyone have to spend their time and money to visit him?
- Manufacturer-staged reviews are a waste of time. you cannot know what they have done and is not in a room you know well.
- If Elac or anyone else insisted on a visit, we would not review their products.
I can be impressed by someone else's audio system but concluding that better speakers are why could be a major (and likely expensive mistake).
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Rick you have to believe!
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