Danny Richie's latest...

[Todd68]

I don't have "technical credibility" other than building speakers since the 1970s (T-S equations on a basic 4-function calculator) but:

I visited Danny on maybe 3 occasions, both before and after his move to the new(er) buildings. Simply a road trip since he is sort of local.

The visits were, well, unimpressive. I won't go into all the non-audio (expensive) hobbies he supports out of these buildings but he stores the raw drivers in a row of about a dozen shipping containers sitting in the Texas sun/heat outside the main barn. The actual speaker area is just a small walled off portion of the main barn. Just as an observation, he used Parts Express DuraTex over MDF as the kitchen countertops in the main house. Wow.

I have some spare sheets of NoRez in a closet from a X-LS Encore build about 10 years ago. I pulled them out the other day and the foam has completely decomposed and falling apart in chunks. I'm glad I no longer have those speakers, they wern't anything special other than the cost at the time ($200?). They're probably blowing chunks of NoRez out of the ports by now.

I haven't been back.

I don't have "technical credibility" other than building speakers since the 1970s (T-S equations on a basic 4-function calculator) but:

I visited Danny on maybe 3 occasions, both before and after his move to the new(er) buildings. Simply a road trip since he is sort of local.

The visits were, well, unimpressive. I won't go into all the non-audio (expensive) hobbies he supports out of these buildings but he stores the raw drivers in a row of about a dozen shipping containers sitting in the Texas sun/heat outside the main barn. The actual speaker area is just a small walled off portion of the main barn. Just as an observation, he used Parts Express DuraTex over MDF as the kitchen countertops in the main house. Wow.

I have some spare sheets of NoRez in a closet from a X-LS Encore build about 10 years ago. I pulled them out the other day and the foam has completely decomposed and falling apart in chunks. I'm glad I no longer have those speakers, they wern't anything special other than the cost at the time ($200?). They're probably blowing chunks of NoRez out of the ports by now.

I haven't been back.

Why would you visit the second time then even a third time it was so bad? It’s a small business so I wouldn’t expect to be impressed with the operation. You built his cheapest kit and so you formed an opinion from that?

I meant impressed from listening to his setup with the Extreme speakers and OB subs. I guess it’s possible it’s nothing special and everyone who thought otherwise is just being nice cause Danny took em out for barbecue.

 

[Mikey1]

Why would you visit the second time then even a third time it was so bad? It’s a small business so I wouldn’t expect to be impressed with the operation. You built his cheapest kit and so you formed an opinion from that?

I meant impressed from listening to his setup with the Extreme speakers and OB subs. I guess it’s possible it’s nothing special and everyone who thought otherwise is just being nice cause Danny took em out for barbecue.

I built the complete A/V series first when it was his main offering (before OBs, ribbon tweeters, Tube Connector, etc), maybe 2000-ish. I'm a woodworker and was more interested in building the transmission line enclosures and learning to veneer large cabinets at the time. Then a 2nd set for a relative. They were a bargain at the time and actually sounded decent for the $. I still have the tower TLs (with chunks of decomposed NoRez falling out of the ports).

The X-LS Encores were just a drive-by curiosity because I go out that way every August for the Hotter 'n Hell bike ride. They weren't horrible, either, for the time frame Danny originally rescued them from AV-123. Remember, they were under $200 way back then.

I built another pair with the BG Neo ribbons (forget the name) and they were truly awful and I haven't been back since. Again, I was more interested in the woodworking aspect and relatively low parts cost. This was all well before the modern disdain for Danny.

 

[Rick Sykora]

I built the complete A/V series first when it was his main offering (before OBs, ribbon tweeters, Tube Connector, etc), maybe 2000-ish. I'm a woodworker and was more interested in building the transmission line enclosures and learning to veneer large cabinets at the time. Then a 2nd set for a relative. They were a bargain at the time and actually sounded decent for the $. I still have the tower TLs (with chunks of decomposed NoRez falling out of the ports).

The X-LS Encores were just a drive-by curiosity because I go out that way every August for the Hotter 'n Hell bike ride. They weren't horrible, either, for the time frame Danny originally rescued them from AV-123. Remember, they were under $200 way back then.

I built another pair with the BG Neo ribbons (forget the name) and they were truly awful and I haven't been back since. Again, I was more interested in the woodworking aspect and relatively low parts cost. This was all well before the modern disdain for Danny.

Thanks for sharing!

I have a comparable history, except my "local" supplier was Parts Express (and sometimes Meniscus Audio). While was a great learning experience, except for some subwoofers, nothing I built was exceptional and so most of it has been sold or repurposed. My prior commercial experience is not all that different except for spending a lot more. Not unlike others am sure, I went through many iterations of brand name speakers (Dynaco, Mission, KEF, and Vandersteen to name a few). With one or two exceptions, would not recommend any of them to others, but I know more today than I did back then...

Along with building and listening to the X-LS Encore, this is why I do not recommend it despite a decent review here: It is an old design, and we simply know more today about good speaker design than we did back then. All GR's "better" component gold-plating does not change its age and only makes it less competitive versus today's designs. As you allude, it does not help that Danny started pushing more questionable products and earned him more disdain than seems he had in his earlier years. If I lived closer to him would likely have built more of his kits too.

 

[Todd68]

I really enjoy building my own gear and despite what others might think, can be good bang for the buck. That’s the main reason I bought the GR Research kits. I built some parts express kits, the Epique CBT 24 and a pair sealed Dayton audio subs. Those have good performance but not quite good enough to make me stop looking for something better.

With the GR kits even if outdated, I feel are good enough to not think about speaker upgrades anymore. Instead I try to learn more about room affects and treatments, and try to take the sound quality up a notch a little at a time.

 

[Todd68]

I built the complete A/V series first when it was his main offering (before OBs, ribbon tweeters, Tube Connector, etc), maybe 2000-ish. I'm a woodworker and was more interested in building the transmission line enclosures and learning to veneer large cabinets at the time. Then a 2nd set for a relative. They were a bargain at the time and actually sounded decent for the $. I still have the tower TLs (with chunks of decomposed NoRez falling out of the ports).

The X-LS Encores were just a drive-by curiosity because I go out that way every August for the Hotter 'n Hell bike ride. They weren't horrible, either, for the time frame Danny originally rescued them from AV-123. Remember, they were under $200 way back then.

I built another pair with the BG Neo ribbons (forget the name) and they were truly awful and I haven't been back since. Again, I was more interested in the woodworking aspect and relatively low parts cost. This was all well before the modern disdain for Danny.

Interesting, I love those NEO tweeters. Keep in mind I’m almost 60 years old and have hearing loss like most everyone my age. Maybe I can’t hear if it’s something wrong. Also they are planer magnetic and I think quite different from ribbons. I owned speakers with ribbons before. RAAL, a well respected brand, though I can’t remember exact model. They may have a tad more detail but I think less dynamic.

 

[Rick Sykora]

I don't have "technical credibility" other than building speakers since the 1970s (T-S equations on a basic 4-function calculator) but:

I visited Danny on maybe 3 occasions, both before and after his move to the new(er) buildings. Simply a road trip since he is sort of local.

The visits were, well, unimpressive. I won't go into all the non-audio (expensive) hobbies he supports out of these buildings but he stores the raw drivers in a row of about a dozen shipping containers sitting in the Texas sun/heat outside the main barn. The actual speaker area is just a small walled off portion of the main barn. Just as an observation, he used Parts Express DuraTex over MDF as the kitchen countertops in the main house. Wow.

I have some spare sheets of NoRez in a closet from a X-LS Encore build about 10 years ago. I pulled them out the other day and the foam has completely decomposed and falling apart in chunks. I'm glad I no longer have those speakers, they wern't anything special other than the cost at the time ($200?). They're probably blowing chunks of NoRez out of the ports by now.

I haven't been back.

@TunaBug as you asked in another thread, above quote is from someone with long term experience with NoRez.

The new Norez just showed on my porch and can confirm it is very different (seems more like cheap packing foam) than the previous version. Will see shortly how it compares acoustically.

 

[Todd68]

@TunaBug as you asked in another thread, above quote is from someone with long term experience with NoRez.

The new Norez just showed on my porch and can confirm it is very different (seems more like cheap packing foam) than the previous version. Will see shortly how it compares acoustically.

I guess I’ll know in ten years if the No Rez falls apart or not. My speakers and subs have it on panels you can see. The speakers have the original type and subs the new type.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Felt I should ensure I correctly represented Andrew Robinson's position so went to his YouTube channel and checked firsthand. I validated what I had said but struggled as he seems rather flippant overall (but acknowledge that many do not care about parts but only the end result). He also pontificates just as much about attention given to designer worship as much as speaker parts btw. I checked some of the reviews and was pleased to see that they do not appear to be censored (as Danny tends to do). I did catch a response from his partner about Danny's GR invite that I found the comments rather poignant...

1. Why should anyone have to spend their time and money to visit him?
2. Manufacturer-staged reviews are a waste of time. you cannot know what they have done and is not in a room you know well.
3. If Elac or anyone else insisted on a visit, we would not review their products.

I think most folks entirely concur on point 1 but point 2 is worthy of some elaboration. I can go listen to someone else's speakers but am also taking in their room and the rest of the system. In Danny's case. the room and room treatment likely plays the most significant role. So even if the speakers sound great, you cannot readily determine what makes it sound better. Maybe you like the sound of battery-powered tube amps? Is it the better speaker parts? Would Danny allow you to swap in your own amplification or favorite source? Could it be done as a controlled comparison? Even if you could, cannot factor out the room in the end. Sure, his system might sound great but how much can be attributed to his speaker's parts or design?

I can be impressed by someone else's audio system but concluding that better speakers are why could be a major (and likely expensive mistake).

 

[Spkrdctr]

Felt I should ensure I correctly represented Andrew Robinson's position so went to his YouTube channel and checked firsthand. I validated what I had said but struggled as he seems rather flippant overall (but acknowledge that many do not care about parts but only the end result). He also pontificates just as much about attention given to designer worship as much as speaker parts btw. I checked some of the reviews and was pleased to see that they do not appear to be censored (as Danny tends to do). I did catch a response from his partner about Danny's GR invite that I found the comments poignant...

1. Why should anyone have to spend their time and money to visit him?
2. Manufacturer-staged reviews are a waste of time. you cannot know what they have done and is not in a room you know well.
3. If Elac or anyone else insisted on a visit, we would not review their products.

I think most folks entirely concur on point 1 but point 2 is worthy of some elaboration. I can go listen to someone else's speakers but am also taking in their room and the rest of the system. In Danny's case. the room and room treatment likely plays the most significant role. So even if the speakers sound great, you cannot readily determine what makes it sound better. Maybe you like the sound of battery-powered tube amps? Is it the better speaker parts? Would Danny allow you to swap in your own amplification or favorite source? Could it be done as a controlled comparison? Even if you could, cannot factor out the room in the end. Sure, his system might sound great but how much can be attributed to his speaker's parts or design?

I can be impressed by someone else's audio system but concluding that better speakers are why could be a major (and likely expensive mistake).

Rick you have to believe!

 

[Rick Sykora]

Rick you have to believe!

I believe in science!

 

[Todd68]

This is funny to me, on one hand I’ve heard complaints he ruins the “house sound” of speakers from trying to improve the frequency response, then on ASR the complaints are he doesn’t know how to measure properly so all his designs are probably mediocre and bested from cheaper main stream brands. Of course from people who never owned any of his best designs.

And now, maybe his speakers can sound good, but only in a good room. So maybe the speakers are just mediocre and it’s the room!

 

[Rick Sykora]

This is funny to me, on one hand I’ve heard complaints he ruins the “house sound” of speakers from trying to improve the frequency response, then on ASR the complaints are he doesn’t know how to measure properly so all his designs are probably mediocre and bested from cheaper main stream brands. Of course from people who never owned any of his best designs.

And now, maybe his speakers can sound good, but only in a good room. So maybe the speakers are just mediocre and it’s the room!

I suspect you may be missing a key element here. Despite getting a positive recommendation on his X-LS Encore review, Danny wanted Amir to review a version with his pricey crossover upgrades. Initially Danny agreed to supply a review sample but later backed out and claimed Amir’s listening conditions (mainly his room and mono listening) would not allow his mods to be heard.

Nobody reasonable argues against room influences, but it has only been Danny that argued that the room had to be special to hear how exceptional his speakers are. It is Danny who does not supply his “best” speakers to any reviewer that he cannot influence. Clearly if Danny wanted, he could send his speakers for Erin to review, but he does not.

 

[dfuller]

This is funny to me, on one hand I’ve heard complaints he ruins the “house sound” of speakers from trying to improve the frequency response, then on ASR the complaints are he doesn’t know how to measure properly so all his designs are probably mediocre and bested from cheaper main stream brands. Of course from people who never owned any of his best designs.

And now, maybe his speakers can sound good, but only in a good room. So maybe the speakers are just mediocre and it’s the room!

His measurements themselves aren't bad, per se - but they are overly smoothed and they could probably do with being stitched to nearfield measurements for below ~300hz to allow for higher resolution.

 

[Todd68]

I suspect you may be missing a key element here. Despite getting a positive recommendation on his X-LS Encore review, Danny wanted Amir to review a version with his pricey crossover upgrades. Initially Danny agreed to supply a review sample but later backed out and claimed Amir’s listening conditions (mainly his room and mono listening) would not allow his mods to be heard.

Nobody reasonable argues against room influences, but it has only been Danny that argued that the room had to be special to hear how exceptional his speakers are. It is Danny who does not supply his “best” speakers to any reviewer that he cannot influence. Clearly if Danny wanted, he could send his speakers for Erin to review, but he does not.

I suspect you may be missing a key element here. Despite getting a positive recommendation on his X-LS Encore review, Danny wanted Amir to review a version with his pricey crossover upgrades. Initially Danny agreed to supply a review sample but later backed out and claimed Amir’s listening conditions (mainly his room and mono listening) would not allow his mods to be heard.

Nobody reasonable argues against room influences, but it has only been Danny that argued that the room had to be special to hear how exceptional his speakers are. It is Danny who does not supply his “best” speakers to any reviewer that he cannot influence. Clearly if Danny wanted, he could send his speakers for Erin to review, but he does not.

You can’t hear spatial cues, imaging and soundstage and overall how well the speakers sound if you only listen to one speaker. How could anyone argue against that? If one doesn’t make an attempt to try and optimize the speakers positioning (which also matters a lot) you can’t hear the potential.

I don’t know anything about Amir’s room, but if there’s no attention to room treatments I wouldn’t expect to hear much of a difference, if the room reflections swamps the sound.

 

[Doodski]

You can’t hear spatial cues, imaging and soundstage and overall how well the speakers sound if you only listen to one speaker. How could anyone argue against that? If one doesn’t make an attempt to try and optimize the speakers positioning (which also matters a lot) you can’t hear the potential.

The room reflections, dampening and stuff is what you are hearing in a room with 2 speakers. With one speaker the listener can hear the speaker and not the room reflections like a stereo setup provides. One speaker is better for analyzing a speaker.

 

[Todd68]

I can’t hear any of the spatial cues just listening to one speaker, just the balance of the frequency response.

 

[Todd68]

Did you ever audition speakers and only want to listen to one?

 

[dfuller]

I should clarify: one speaker is a much better way to check for tonality. It's not a good way to check for multi-channel effects (including stereo).

But with that said, spatial cues and imaging and soundstage are all mostly the result of placement and room:speaker interaction.

 

[Rick Sykora]

You can’t hear spatial cues, imaging and soundstage and overall, how well the speakers sound if you only listen to one speaker. How could anyone argue against that? If one doesn’t make an attempt to try and optimize the speakers positioning (which also matters a lot) you can’t hear the potential.

If you extended this argument further, the surround sound folks would argue even more speakers are needed. Do you think you hear imaging the same way as the reviewer? Should reviewers always be under 30 and tested for whether they can hear soundstage? We may not have measurements that are well understood for the some of the things you mention, but we definitely have an audio segment that will make claims that they are not measurable (while not offering any method to consistently capture them). Being able to claim mystical causes for things we hear is perpetuated by some in the industry that prefer the consumer to think there is some magic involved here. You have said you have CBT24s and so you know they are way more time-aligned and linear phase than most speakers. Fine if you prefer how GR speakers sound but cannot claim it is because they are better in time alignment or phase (as Danny would claim is a requirement).

The fact "you can't hear imaging" in mono is more about the number of sources needed by our hearing rather than the speaker. I have heard some euphonic images created by what most would consider to be mediocre speakers (at least by today's standards). So, if you have not already, please review the following...

Speaker Testing: why mono is better

This topic of "why Amir tests speakers in mono" keeps coming up. I must have explained that a hundred times in text. Most of you probably know why. But I thought I do a video that covers the research and explains it all. Here it is: References...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Rick Sykora]

His measurements themselves aren't bad, per se - but they are overly smoothed and they could probably do with being stitched to nearfield measurements for below ~300hz to allow for higher resolution.

Along with the lack of bass measurement, the major issue I see is the scaling he uses. It is really for his design purposes but too easily misleads the more casual observer that the FR response is much worse (or sometimes better) than other (correctly scaled) measurements. Also, he either does not understand or often misrepresents what is desirable off-axis behavior.

So far, we have one older GR speaker that measured and performed decently. We also have a couple of other major misses. As I mentioned earlier, Danny's unwillingness to provide review samples does not lend to his credibility.