Danny Richie's latest...

[amirm]

I just watched that video. He doesn't say anything he hasn't said a million times before. But also makes claims that are just wrong. He says he can't turn off ads on his videos? Really? It is just a one click selection to turn off monetization. Worse yet, in another video or comment he bragged about how he makes good money from youtube.

He does point out correctly that people love his upgrade videos as it is good entertainment, kind of like a reality show. Fact that he doesn't even bother to listen to the upgrade, or explain how it makes economic sense to spend so much money, is nicely ignored by him and his audience, reflecting again that people are entertained by his videos.

He also says absurd things like accurate speakers sound boring. He should listen go a Genelec or Neumann and claim that.

Finally, it is hard to adjudicate between him and Andrew as both suffer from so many faults in their audio evaluations. To Andrew's credit, he has started to pay more attention to measurements but still far from where he needs to be.

 

[DanielT]

I just watched that video. He doesn't say anything he hasn't said a million times before. But also makes claims that are just wrong. He says he can't turn off ads on his videos? Really? It is just a one click selection to turn off monetization. Worse yet, in another video or comment he bragged about how he makes good money from youtube.

He does point out correctly that people love his upgrade videos as it is good entertainment, kind of like a reality show. Fact that he doesn't even bother to listen to the upgrade, or explain how it makes economic sense to spend so much money, is nicely ignored by him and his audience, reflecting again that people are entertained by his videos.

He also says absurd things like accurate speakers sound boring. He should listen go a Genelec or Neumann and claim that.

Finally, it is hard to adjudicate between him and Andrew as both suffer from so many faults in their audio evaluations. To Andrew's credit, he has started to pay more attention to measurements but still far from where he needs to be.

But I think there is a BIG difference between them. Andrew Robinson is humble and self-aware, he says for example about his measurements that these are mine, other measurements may vary:

When does Danny show any humility or self-awareness?

The graph above comes from #28 in the Elac thread where Andrew Robinson's measurements are discussed:

ELAC Debut 3.0 Series announced at High End Munich

I dont want to go negative right away without hearing the speaker, but the fact that its not designed by andrew jones and has an allu tweeter doesnt look great to me. Again and again i tried allu tweeters, and i always come back to soft dome tweeters

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Todd68]

Have not bothered much with tracking everything GR does, but thought this recent video was interesting as Danny is now on defense from another camp - an apparent poke by reviewer Andrew Robinson. Robinson has 300K+ youtube subscribers. He recently poked at expensive crossover parts and those marketing them. His position was a simple one - if it sounds good, do not care much what is inside.

This sent Danny reeling and he posted a response. Tbh, only skimmed is as I really rather not waste much time on it. My perusal was enough to know it was Danny usual propaganda and was chock full of his usual superlatives and lots of handwaving. Did not see any use of measurements or objective content in his response. At the end, he does put out his usual invite to for Andrew (and others) to visit GR. Doubt Robinson will take the bait.

If he wants to try and prove Danny is full of it, he should accept the invite. I think he would earn more respect if he showed an open mind and got some experience to back his claims. As long as he’s honest about the experience.

I never heard of anyone visiting Danny and then say they weren’t impressed.

 

[Rick Sykora]

If he wants to try and prove Danny is full of it, he should accept the invite. I think he would earn more respect if he showed an open mind and got some experience to back his claims. As long as he’s honest about the experience.

I never heard of anyone visiting Danny and then say they weren’t impressed.

How many folks have visited GR and what impressed them? Anyone notably known for their objective technical credibility?

I note that Jay Lee visited but did not design a speaker with GR but went with CSS instead. Robinson has little to gain from a visit imo.

 

[Todd68]

How many folks have visited GR and what impressed them? Anyone notably known for their objective technical credibility?

I note that Jay Lee visited but did not design a speaker with GR but went with CSS instead. Robinson has little to gain from a visit imo.

I don’t know how many. Jay Lee doesn’t know how to design a speaker, correct me If I’m wrong, but I think he only helped pick out types or brands of crossover parts for CSS, not actually design anything. He was impressed with what he heard at Danny’s (imaging soundstage) but I think he already had this venture with CSS so was sorta nitpicking about what he heard regarding tonal balance, or has a different preference of what he thinks sounds balanced regarding tone.

There’s a few on the GR forum who visited. You could too, but I suppose no one from this forum would even consider it.

Anyway, I should probably avoid responding to any discussion about GR. I really don’t care about the criticism, but I did watch those videos and that’s why I responded.

Just remembered, Clayton Shaw from Spatial Audio visited, not sure if he’s considered to have “objective technical credibility” but he sells and designs speakers people consider very good sounding.

 

[Rick Sykora]

I don’t know how many. Jay Lee doesn’t know how to design a speaker, correct me If I’m wrong, but I think he only helped pick out types or brands of crossover parts for CSS, not actually design anything. He was impressed with what he heard at Danny’s (imaging soundstage) but I think he already had this venture with CSS so was sorta nitpicking about what he heard regarding tonal balance, or has a different preference of what he thinks sounds balanced regarding tone.

There’s a few on the GR forum who visited. You could too, but I suppose no one from this forum would even consider it.

Anyway, I should probably avoid responding to any discussion about GR. I really don’t care about the criticism, but I did watch those videos and that’s why I responded.

Just remembered, Clayton Shaw from Spatial Audio visited, not sure if he’s considered to have “objective technical credibility” but he sells and designs speakers people consider very good sounding.

Yes, because of scientific objectivity, agree it is difficult to be a GR advocate on ASR. Namely, if all you can do is state “lots of folks are impressed”. Well, that claim could be made for any number of unscrupulous peddlers (or worse). That does not mean we do not allow others opinions but it does not pass the higher bar of credible technical evidence. As speakers are the major investment of better sound systems and measuring them is not all that expensive these days. Lacking measurements, we are left with public opinion. Multiple studies show how poor opinion ranks as a judge of speaker accuracy.

Do not know Clayton Shaw well but see no evidence of measurements or any objective aspect to his speaker designs (past or present). Looks as though his speakers are “impressive” but not credible beyond that. At least Danny does some measurements. Shaw is asking $3500 for his latest speaker without offering much proof as to how well they perform. He offers a return policy but is meaningless is at least $300 to return them. No thanks.

 

[Todd68]

I guess it would be lot easier for people to choose if it weren’t so many different manufacturers, and I understand that most people will trust the big name brands that are recommended here. Though I do see recommendations for a couple smaller companies, Ascend and BMR come to mind.

Keep in mind even choosing a model that’s ASR approved doesn’t guarantee you’ll be satisfied. I tried two recommended models and sent them back, I liked my speakers from a lesser known small company better, they weren’t ever mentioned on this site. Plus it’s unlikely a person would buy from these small internet companies that aren’t ASR approved without having experiencing products from some of these well respected companies and for some reason wanted to try something less mainstream.

 

[Jon L]

I don’t know how many. Jay Lee doesn’t know how to design a speaker

Jay is young, so his ears are probably better for high frequencies than many of us But he is just an ex-salesman of an audio store, which is actually a great place to gain a lot of first-hand experience since local brick & mortar audiophile stores are pretty much gone for the masses to gain first-hand auditions. But he is starting to shows signs of somebody who has gained too much attention too quickly.

 

[Rick Sykora]

I will take some blame but this discussion us going off topic. Amir bothered to watch Danny's entire video and so will trust what he stated earlier.

Notably, people (like Danny and others) may find accurate speakers to be boring. This is not uncommon if you have gotten used to a certain sound and prefer it. The whole audio scene is filled with inaccuracies as well so no reason to get myopic on individual personal preference. However, if your goal is to improve, then denying audio science is a sure-fire way to waste a lot of time and money. You might just as well hope for more future sound quality advances in vinyl playback 

 

[Todd68]

I would say complete accuracy is impossible and getting close is good enough. And then room curves, people adjusting tone controls or whatever it’s no longer accurate anyway.

 

[amirm]

I would say complete accuracy is impossible and getting close is good enough.

You can get superbly accurate: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh120-ii-monitor-review.46362/

There is nothing Danny has built or modified that remotely approaches this level of accuracy. Danny doesn't use any modern tools to design and optimize a speaker. Nor does he believe in fundamental key to accuracy: DSP. His rooms have no DSP either which guarantees uneven frequency response. I am happy to go visit him once he provides measurements for his room so we can see if he has that right. If he doesn't, there is no reason to go.

 

[MattHooper]

You can get superbly accurate: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh120-ii-monitor-review.46362/

There is nothing Danny has built or modified that remotely approaches this level of accuracy. Danny doesn't use any modern tools to design and optimize a speaker. Nor does he believe in fundamental key to accuracy: DSP. His rooms have no DSP either which guarantees uneven frequency response. I am happy to go visit him once he provides measurements for his room so we can see if he has that right. If he doesn't, there is no reason to go.

Those measurements are amazing!

I once had for a while the Waveform Mach Solo loudspeakers, which had been measured at a magazine, showing they were incredibly linear. I think the most linear they had measured to that point if I remember. (unfortunately that article is no longer available on the Internet as it was a very old review).

Anyway, driven by Bryston amplifiers they were very, very far from boring! They were thrilling!

 

[Todd68]

That’s not in room response, I meant when the speakers are in a room and you’re at your listening position. I never said the most accurate speakers can’t sound good, I don’t think Danny did either. I guess the easiest way to get the most accurate sound, we would need studio monitors and DSP, and don’t forget room treatments.

Still doesn’t mean less accurate speakers can’t be just as satisfying or maybe more satisfying depending on the person’s hearing and personal preferences.

 

[amirm]

I never said the most accurate speakers can’t sound good, I don’t think Danny did either.

Oh Danny absolutely did in that last video. He said two speakers with identical and excellent response can sound vastly different in sound stage, detail, etc. Which aggravates the first claim even more. I have listened to a number of accurate speakers in room and you couldn't wipe the smile off my face no matter how much you tried!

 

[amirm]

Still doesn’t mean less accurate speakers can’t be just as satisfying or maybe more satisfying depending on the person’s hearing and personal preferences.

A proper speaker doesn't target such vagaries. And is no justification for saying such a speaker is excellent or in the case of Danny, the best there is. In the battle for the "best," you better bring the goods and receipts. Danny doesn't do either and just hands us boastful claims.

 

[Todd68]

Just one more thing, would you consider those monitors as good as your Reval Salons? I kinda like the sound from big towers over the small monitors with subs I tried.

 

[amirm]

Just one more thing, would you consider those monitors as good as your Reval Salons? I

Not in scale and dynamics.

 

[Todd68]

Not in scale and dynamics.

That’s what I was getting at, you could listen to speakers that measure perfectly, then listen to a pair that just measure mediocre. But due to aspects of sound like you mentioned, plus others like imaging and soundstage, you could very much prefer the worse measuring ones.

 

[Rick Sykora]

That’s what I was getting at, you could listen to speakers that measure perfectly, then listen to a pair that just measure mediocre. But due to aspects of sound like you mentioned, plus others like imaging and soundstage, you could very much prefer the worse measuring ones.

Agree you might have a preference and that is fine. Your supposition is that one might have to trade the better measuring speaker for a speaker that has other desirable qualities. These are not mutually exclusive qualities. We can measure differences between a KH120 and a Salon speaker. Yes, imaging and soundstage have influences that are not as easily characterized. This does not mean it is impossible to characterize them or we should stop trying.

Danny has argued not to measure speaker bass response because the room influences it. Well the room (volume, dimensions, speaker position, surface treatments, etc.) affects how speakers sound too. So if you extend Danny’s hypothesis, you should not measure at all because rooms are different. The human body is so much more complex than a speaker. Should I not measure its temperature, blood pressure or other tests to determine if it is functioning well or poorly? Yes, testing the human body can be overdone and some tests may be less meaningful or situational but does not mean we should forgo measurements that do help our understanding.

Just because we did not or could not easily measure speaker characteristics in the past does not mean that newer measurements are not useful. Measuring may not be perfect and am often asking what the measurements conditions were. But while some would keep us in the dark entirely because of greed or their own motivations, others spin tales to distract or mislead.

The problem is that those who criticize measurements offer no alternative for how to advance the state of the art in audio. If you prefer to count on them, that is your choice. If you start to count, you are now in the measurement camp. No promises that what you find will always be good but at least you will be better informed.

 

[Mikey1]

How many folks have visited GR and what impressed them? Anyone notably known for their objective technical credibility?

I note that Jay Lee visited but did not design a speaker with GR but went with CSS instead. Robinson has little to gain from a visit imo.

I don't have "technical credibility" other than building speakers since the 1970s (T-S equations on a basic 4-function calculator) but:

I visited Danny on maybe 3 occasions, both before and after his move to the new(er) buildings. Simply a road trip since he is sort of local.

The visits were, well, unimpressive. I won't go into all the non-audio (expensive) hobbies he supports out of these buildings but he stores the raw drivers in a row of about a dozen shipping containers sitting in the Texas sun/heat outside the main barn. The actual speaker area is just a small walled off portion of the main barn. Just as an observation, he used Parts Express DuraTex over MDF as the kitchen countertops in the main house. Wow.

I have some spare sheets of NoRez in a closet from a X-LS Encore build about 10 years ago. I pulled them out the other day and the foam has completely decomposed and falling apart in chunks. I'm glad I no longer have those speakers, they wern't anything special other than the cost at the time ($200?). They're probably blowing chunks of NoRez out of the ports by now.

I haven't been back.