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Danny at GR getting bad Talk Back from many of his viewers

Is it possible to generalize and say that old speakers with tweeters that have ferrofluid in them should be filled with such fluid?

How much liquid is needed to fix two tweeters? I mostly wonder if it's worth it.

I did a quick google. AlegaFerrofluid - 10 ml, 200 SEK /$19. Is it a good price?

Edit:
I know, worth to one person but not to another, so I guess it's subjective.
My experience is limited, but a tweeter that uses ferrofluid can be operated without the fluid in the gap, if so the parameters do change but not in a way I would call dramatic. I measured a tweeter that I cleaned up years ago, I didn't save the data and I emphasize I am not an expert in the field of ferrofluid, but I concluded that the biggest worry was power heat dissipation and power handling (I can only speculate), not frequency response or sound (which I actually measured and was a nit). Since the tweeter was used with a fairly low crossover point, I figured better to use the fluid.

I have an old Seas tweeter on my bench with the fluid completely dried to a varnish consistency. If I can get it out of the gap, I will test and post what I see in terms of parameter changes with and without fluid, since I have brand new diaphragms, along the way of doing yet another test of 'do speakers really change that much during break-in?'. The problem is getting the remnants of the fluid out of the gap now that it is the consistency of iron-impregnated resin.
 
My experience is limited, but a tweeter that uses ferrofluid can be operated without the fluid in the gap, if so the parameters do change but not in a way I would call dramatic. I measured a tweeter that I cleaned up years ago, I didn't save the data and I emphasize I am not an expert in the field of ferrofluid, but I concluded that the biggest worry was power heat dissipation and power handling (I can only speculate), not frequency response or sound (which I actually measured and was a nit). Since the tweeter was used with a fairly low crossover point, I figured better to use the fluid.

I have an old Seas tweeter on my bench with the fluid completely dried to a varnish consistency. If I can get it out of the gap, I will test and post what I see in terms of parameter changes with and without fluid, since I have brand new diaphragms, along the way of doing yet another test of 'do speakers really change that much during break-in?'. The problem is getting the remnants of the fluid out of the gap now that it is the consistency of iron-impregnated resin.
But isn't this really rather silly overkill HiFi, to use ferrofluid for cooling, for normal home HiFi use? What kind of cooling is actually needed? Or what the point of it actually is? It's about home HiFi speakers with ditto tweeters not PA speakers that are pushed to extremes, so what about that need for cooling?
Or have I missed something now?:oops:

Does the liquid dry out completely maybe because of that design, but...I don't know, I'm just speculating now.But feel free to try: I will test and post what I see in terms of parameter changes with and without fluid,... It will be really fun to see the results. Good luck with the test.:D
 
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But isn't this really rather silly overkill HiFi, to use ferrofluid for cooling, for normal home HiFi use? What kind of cooling is actually needed? Or what the point of it actually is? It's about home HiFi speakers with ditto tweeters not PA speakers that are pushed to extremes, so what about that need for cooling?
Or have I missed something now?:oops:

Does the liquid dry out completely maybe because of that design, but...I don't know, I'm just speculating now.But feel free to try: I will test and post what I see in terms of parameter changes with and without fluid,... It will be really fun to see the results. Good luck with the test.:D
It does provide cooling. Home use does get the voice coils and associated bits quite hot. I think it is a tool.

The Seas tweeters with the dried ferrofluid are over 20 years old, and used quite heavily. The tweeter plays low, and was used with a low crossover. Perhaps without the ferrofluid I would have melted the VC at high volume. If so, it did it's job! It sure is a mess now though...
 
Wow this thread really took off!

I think I see an issue with many of us, (I guess myself included) have designed speakers, worked for speaker companies, or simply have enough DIY experience to know pretty much the same as D.R or more in many cases.

That puts him in defense mode, and brings out the faux explanations.
Many complain about no A/B demonstration, which he explains would be totally lost on youtubes compressed sound......okay true to some degree, but..
No distortion measurements at all, which he explains can be doctored to look good or bad.....???
"Fixing" a speaker that is older, is often fixing a "One off" as it may have aged poorly or have tweeter issues etc.
So essentially you are fixing one guys speaker and assuming maybe incorrectly or maybe correctly that ALL of that model will have nearly identical response issues.

That leaves us as guys that kind of "See through" his facade and friendly "Helpful" demeanor, as long as you send his $400-700 for his "Fixes"
 
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My experience is limited, but a tweeter that uses ferrofluid can be operated without the fluid in the gap, if so the parameters do change but not in a way I would call dramatic. I measured a tweeter that I cleaned up years ago, I didn't save the data and I emphasize I am not an expert in the field of ferrofluid, but I concluded that the biggest worry was power heat dissipation and power handling (I can only speculate), not frequency response or sound (which I actually measured and was a nit). Since the tweeter was used with a fairly low crossover point, I figured better to use the fluid.

I have an old Seas tweeter on my bench with the fluid completely dried to a varnish consistency. If I can get it out of the gap, I will test and post what I see in terms of parameter changes with and without fluid, since I have brand new diaphragms, along the way of doing yet another test of 'do speakers really change that much during break-in?'. The problem is getting the remnants of the fluid out of the gap now that it is the consistency of iron-impregnated resin.
Sometimes, the fluid if not evenly "applied" correctly (I assume) even with new drivers, will for sure cause response issues, sensitivity and resonances and alter the tweeters Fs and distortion levels.


Read the above for an example if you wish.
I have to add, I am NOT an expert in this either (ferrofluid issues), but found the above quite interesting none the less.
 
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Sometimes, the fluid if not evenly "applied" correctly (I assume) even with new drivers, will for sure cause response issues, sensitivity and resonances and alter the tweeters Fs and distortion levels.


Read the above for an example if you wish.
I have to add, I am NOT an expert in this either (ferrofluid issues), but found the above quite interesting none the less.
It's hard for me to tell what that person did with those tweeters, they only include the measurements after the ferrofluid was removed. No way to compare to the performance of the tweeter with the ferrofluid in place.

Some comments...
This author's sighted assertions are dramatic, and unhelpful:
I proceeded to play some music. It was apparent immediately that something was not right. The tweeter sounded constipated. It’s like the highs were impeded. I don’t ever recall a fabric dome tweeter sounding this horrible before.
:facepalm:

The author's ferrofluid observation is naïve:
I noticed the voice coil was not fully immersed in ferrofluid. Maybe that’s where the problem is.
This is actually how the ferrofluid is supposed to be, never supposed to be fully filling the gap.:facepalm:

And, the distortion graph doesn't look right, and even if it was is not comparing before and after ferrofluid removal, so no idea what to make of this except the author isn't good at making distortion measurements.:facepalm:

Removing the ferrofluid has a very subtle effect on the measurements, may or may not be audible depending on the usage and tweeter. Old dried up ferrofluid has an effect on the measurements, and is often audible. Filling the gap completely has a large impact, and can be audible.

Most of the internet discussions on ferrofluid are hysterical and non-factual, including massive FUD on DIY-Audio on ferrofluid. The author's assertion that the tweeter sounded "constipated" sounds like they read these incoherent statements, and got a fever in their head that the tweeter was suffering ferrofluid-constipation, and couldn't listen objectively as a result, and didn't or couldn't perform proper measurements to understand if they were hallucinating.:facepalm:

Ferrofluid is another typical audio reproduction tradeoff. It does help with power handling and power compression, it does slightly damp some resonances. It does dry out and is sometimes extremely difficult to remove the metalized varnish. I am just realistic about what it can and can't do to the sound.
 
Final Thoughts on GR Research;

Mr. Richie has taken on the Klipsch Cornwall III and Andrew Jones latest Mofi speaker, with the corresponding crossover updates. I can't help but think that one of these days Mr. Richie is going to step on the wrong foot. One does not go rattlesnake hunting wearing flipflops.

For those who have his products and who like them, rock on, after all sound perception is a personal thing.
I have decided that he is irrelevant to my quest for my end game system, and as such I will cheerfully ignore him.
 
I can't help but think that one of these days Mr. Richie is going to step on the wrong foot. One does not go rattlesnake hunting wearing flipflops.
Just read this thread and others lol

Here's 2 others worth reading for pure hilarity and entertainment (likely others but I just searched for 2 I remembered participating in)



Oh and lets not forget these gems!




Anyway, imho, you could say every time Danny takes a walk he steps in a puddle.. It's frankly a bit offensive to me to think that so many people are taken in by such ... sigh .. :facepalm:
 
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Final Thoughts on GR Research;

Mr. Richie has taken on the Klipsch Cornwall III and Andrew Jones latest Mofi speaker, with the corresponding crossover updates. I can't help but think that one of these days Mr. Richie is going to step on the wrong foot. One does not go rattlesnake hunting wearing flipflops.

For those who have his products and who like them, rock on, after all sound perception is a personal thing.
I have decided that he is irrelevant to my quest for my end game system, and as such I will cheerfully ignore him.

I think he simply feels he knows more than everyone else.

1. He measures, but I still feel his results while in the ballpark, are off a bit, maybe intentionally, but also based on age of drivers or crossovers. I asked him personally about some differences between his charts and other very well respected measurements. His reply summed up was that his are EVERY BIT as accurate as ANY other, including the Klippel, and he knows what he is doing, and how dare question him.

2. He seems unable to understand that well regarded Speaker "Designers" and guys with degrees and actual experience, do not agree with many of his results. Most of his "Fixes" involve crossing the tweeter a good bit lower, but with no real regard for distortion in the THD and Multitone facets at all.

He simply says, "It will be fine", but we all know the original design did differently based on MOSTLY lower distortion in crossover region or long term reliability OF the actual tweeter.

3. The reason the "Pros" tend to ignore him, is fairly simple. They see him as a fly that is right maybe 50/50 and not extremely credible. Yes he DOES at times have some truly decent fixes, but just as often ones that are questionable and iffy.
 
From my perspective, the biggest practical problem with lowering a tweeter's XO frequency is risk of damage to the driver. :( The old rule of thumb of crossing a tweeter at 2 x the driver's Fs didn't just arrive engraved on stone tablets (or copper plates, as the case may be). ;) Lower XO is (may be) OK, but might well require a significant down-rating of the tweeter's power-handling expectation.
Of course, that might be benign -- or it might be very consequential.
 
From my perspective, the biggest practical problem with lowering a tweeter's XO frequency is risk of damage to the driver. :( The old rule of thumb of crossing a tweeter at 2 x the driver's Fs didn't just arrive engraved on stone tablets (or copper plates, as the case may be). ;) Lower XO is (may be) OK, but might well require a significant down-rating of the tweeter's power-handling expectation.
Of course, that might be benign -- or it might be very consequential.
Well said sir!

When I worked in speaker design, (Small local company) we all just "Knew" tweeters are fragile and the first thing that will go, when overdriven or playing loud too long.

You never make the design to compromise a drivers longevity, but instead stress it less by crossing even a tad higher than ideal or letting a resistor be the unit to be compromised as it cost pennies.
 
Most of his "Fixes" involve crossing the tweeter a good bit lower, but with no real regard for distortion in the THD and Multitone facets at all.
I’ve questioned him on this in YouTube comments. He is, as expected, highly defensive and claims no problematic distortion. Then when asked why he doesn’t measure distortion he makes excuses about it being impossible to make accurately.

I find that he almost always improves the on-axis frequency response but there’s a common feature in the off-axis where the new lower crossover point (on the typically non-waveguided tweeter) increases baffle diffraction effects creating a peak in the 2-4KHz region. I questioned him on that and was basically told it wasn’t an issue and I didn’t know what I was talking about.
 
a common feature in the off-axis where the new lower crossover point (on the typically non-waveguided tweeter) increases baffle diffraction effects creating a peak in the 2-4KHz region.
Exactly and that's the worst point someone wants a widening directivity and thus excessive sound power.
 
Danny shows how this new box does incredible miracles , he does have a huge snake on the table , it may bite , it opens sound stage , lowers noise floor down to an incredible -1000dB :p it gives more dynamic range to top gun maverick of 2000dB for eye mind exploding and even makes instant coffee

 
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Classic superlative-laden GR promotion without any measurements or teardown to show what customer is getting for $1600.:rolleyes:

Since UberBUSS is a an AC power product, does it have any UL/CSA, CE or any safety certifications? What happens if it takes a lightning strike? Before I shell out even $50, I want to know that my power equipment will not start a fire.

Listen honey, I really thought Danny’s Uberthingy would take my system to the next level. Sorry that did not consider that it might burn the house down! :facepalm:
 
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Danny shows how this new box does incredible miracles , he does have a huge snake on the table , it may bite , it opens sound stage , lowers noise floor down to an incredible -1000dB :p it gives more dynamic range to top gun maverick of 2000dB for eye mind exploding and even makes instant coffee

I watched it and I have no clue what this thing claims to do.

Isn't the power supply of the device, say, an amplifier, responsible for filtering out the noise and providing reserves for dynamics? Does cleaning up the AC provide any benefit?

How will the music play louder? Is the implication that gain is somehow introduced into the system? What is the benefit of making the power supply do less work if it's already engineered to, y'know, do the work without help?

I'm not an EE by any stretch of the imagination, but is noise backfeeding into the power supply an actual problem or a theoretical problem?
 
I watched it and I have no clue what this thing claims to do.

Isn't the power supply of the device, say, an amplifier, responsible for filtering out the noise and providing reserves for dynamics? Does cleaning up the AC provide any benefit?

How will the music play louder? Is the implication that gain is somehow introduced into the system? What is the benefit of making the power supply do less work if it's already engineered to, y'know, do the work without help?

I'm not an EE by any stretch of the imagination, but is noise backfeeding into the power supply an actual problem or a theoretical problem?
i was just thinking , does this snake oil device have future firmware updates to improve dynamic range :D
 
I actually have and use a Pi Audio Magic-BUSS (2x duplexes) in my system that came directly from Dave Elledge (@dBe on the old Mad board and PETT). An acquaintance of mine back in 2009, enquired about it to Dave online in the forums, and Dave sent him one to test out- and it sat for a year on his shelf. Then I found out about it, they both agreed that I take it and try it out.

As instructed by Dave, we talked then on the phone about it, I was to run my refrigerator with it for 2 weeks, and then listen to my system with and without it. It is to be installed in the spot where all runs through it, and it attaches via cord to the single wall outlet. Each duplex is filtered separately, and I was recommended to run sources on one duplex and amplifiers from the other duplex.

So- I ran my fridge with it like suggested. I then took it to Lafayette, IN with me where another friend of mine then resided. He lived right down the street from a power station, and power was pretty noisy/dirty there. I also took my then recently completed MAX 8" 2ways along for the ride. His gear consisted of an HTPC and a Hafler 2200 at the time.

Being I did not focus on proper directivity for these 8" 2ways back then, the MAX had a tendency towards being a bit bright through the mids, and in some rooms they were on the edge of strident, although very dynamic, lively, and capable of higher output levels. They were also a pretty reactive load being what problems I had to solve to get them that far. IE- a less than benign loudspeaker.

We initially set up my MAX speakers and listened for a while, knowing their inherent qualities. Then we swapped in the MagicBUSS to the power line of the Hafler amplifier alone, otherwise same conditions, even used the same source material. After about 5-10 minutes, he looked at me, and I looked at him. The looks on our faces told each other we both thought the same thing, and we were both shocked that it did anything at all, and that it did what it did to boot.

We both felt that the tendency towards stridency of the MAX pair was gone. They were much easier to listen to. It was not subtle at all in that experience. Being forever skeptics, neither of us thought the BUSS would have any effect on the outcome.

When I returned home, where I have a better power grid connection with many fewer problems than in Lafayette, I played with in and out of the system positions for the BUSS. I could tell that the overall noise floor behind the music was lower with it in place than without, and the MAX sounded better here with the BUSS used than without as well. Since I felt it was advantageous, Dave told me I could keep it free of charge. He gladly would have let me return it had I not noticed and liked the difference.

One last thing, that same friend and I have since done an additional capacitance addition to some power strips. Essentially, all it is is an X2 rated capacitor of 0.47uF strung from Hot to Neutral inside a power plug, and plugged into the strip. What this does is filter out noise from the line, and a lot of devices/electronics actually have these installed on the primary side of the transformer for the same purpose. This method works audibly too to a degree, but to less of a degree than the Magic-BUSS did. I still use both options in my system, and he has since picked up the previous model known as the Gizmo (single duplex unit) to use with his system. I also know of 3 more people with them that will not give up their BUSS.

The Pi Audio Group Gizmo, Magic-BUSS, and (current model, and likely 3rd to 4th revision) Uber-BUSS are highly sought after devices. Dave was making them by hand for quite a while, so that is the reason for the simple painted black MDF box in which they typically are packaged. Power cords and cryo blah-blah aside, I do feel the BUSS line of products can improve systems' underlying noise levels to a discernable degree. However, application location may have an affect on how much improvement is possible.

That said, I usually disagree with Danny and his acceptance of snake-oil type products. This is one situation where we agree for the most part.
Does music sound louder when in use? Not in my experience.
Does the noise floor seem lower? Yes.
Are dynamics improved? Not necessarily. It sounds maybe a little "less congested", would be my words.
How much improvement? Depends on your location to the grid, but maybe 5-10% in my location. It's not quite as dramatic as Danny states, but better in Lafayette than here.
Do I know what is in the box? Nope. Dave said it's his life's work, livelihood, and crowning achievement, and convinced me not to open it up.

My 2c....
 
I posted about GR plans for this in February.

The UberBUSS is a rebranding of the same product from the now defunct PI Audio Group. See here…


Wonder if GR is also covering the Lifetime warranties for the PI Audio Group sales?
 
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