Dan Clark NOIRE XO Headphone Review

[amirm]

I don’t want to be too negative, but since this particular unit was apparently sent directly from the company, we can’t rule out the possibility that it was a handpicked sample with the best performance being tested.

What would they optimize for? Headphone measurements are not super exact. Fine tuning one thing may make something else worse in reviewers hands. The only thing I can think of is better channel matching. But sure, if someone wants to send me one they have purchased, I am happy to measure it.

 

[dburna]

Does anyone know if someone has done a direct comparison between the NX and the NXO? Definitely curious.

 

[jlx]

What I meant my secret sauce is unmeasurable characteristics that poster was mentioning, I apologize if I was misunderstood

exactly where did a mention any magical unmeasurables? I specifically advocated for more measurements and graphs being needed to more fully understand a driver. In fact I stated that there is even data in those graphs that we can't actually hear (being beyond human perception)

with AMT tweeters that I've seen the "wow factor" is likely from elevated treble

the wow factor is because the Mundorfs, and likely other AMTs, are exceptional products when properly utilized.
What you are referring to is a common voicing tactic used by some manufacturers wherein they boost some (or all) of the top end to elicit the "oh I'm hearing things I've never heard before" reaction. The reason folks have never heard those things before is usually because no accurately voiced speaker would, or should, ever sound that way
This kind of thing is done weather a silk dome, a Be dome, a ribbon or an AMT is used. I'm not a fan of that, but apparently it works on the sales floor and product is moved.

I can assure you that the 2 Mundorf AMT models I own are very much comparable in overall sound quality to the 4 different Raal ribbon models I also have. The cheapest unit I have is about $260, the priciest is about $800 (each). I do have a very decent Chinese ribbon that costs about half of that and a Chinese clone of a Mundorf that is interesting. I also have Bliesma Be, Esotar & Utopia tweeters in my collection. Plus 2 different Purifi woofer models, Utopia M woofers, & mids and subs, Esotar mid-woofers, Hertz Legend mids & subs etc. All have been bench tested and measured by me or a speaker designer friend that has better equipment
I tend to use the Bliesma Be units in my cars and I have about 20 Raal ribbons + 8 AMTs + 4 Esotars in daily use at home as I have music in every room (38 speakers running in total). I mention this to demonstrate that I have familiarity with these units and boosting the mids and/or the topend is not going to get past me easily

Also, step response and CSD do not deliver additional information

are you saying that the CSD, step response etc graphs do not contain any information/data (beyond what a simple frequency response plot provides) that is useful to understand the capabilities of a speaker driver? Are these graphs nothing more than raw data that show us what the driver is doing? what am I missing here?

Indeed… it appears to be your imagination, not his/her.
Just curious: have you considered that your thoughts could be part of the problem?

You must be very proud of that very helpful, mature and inciteful statement that has contributed greatly to this discussion where I'm making suggestions as to why 2 different headphones with eq applied so as to have similar tonality still manage to sound different to him. I was in fact confirming that the frequency response graph does not "tell it all" as the poster asked and that more data is needed to show us why there is an audible difference.

 

[CedarX]

You must be very proud of that very helpful, mature and inciteful statement that has contributed greatly to this discussion where I'm making suggestions as to why 2 different headphones with eq applied so as to have similar tonality still manage to sound different to him.

I’m not proud of it, sorry…
But there are a lot of problems with what you suggested in that post.

 

[jlx]

ok, so as things that may apply to raw speaker driver measurements I am familiar with may not apply to that specific issue with his cans, feel free to set me straight. I could be completely wrong, so I'm listening

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

Didn't you already have some high end headphones? (maybe even from Dan Clark already)

Yes I did. And sold it because priorities had changed

 

[Robbo99999]

Interestingly the 5128 target shows a wave in just this region, as you'll see when my post #2 is updated (it won't let me edit but I've sent Rob the content to insert). In this region NXO measures very flat but the target has a wobble, which results in about the same shallow dip at 600Hz relative to target. So some subtlety is involved in assessing the results.

The reason the wobble exists is that getting an open headphone to comply so closely to the Harman curve is hard, there is a forest for the trees situation. As is pretty clear from both GRAS and 5128 compliance to curve the errors are mostly very low Q features and shallow. To my knowledge nobody has achieved this level of curve compliance with an open headphone (anyone feel free to correct me if I am omitting something, there are a lot of products out there!).

Overall we're incredibly proud of this headphone and think the tonal balance is pretty stellar, but if EQ tweeks from Amir help some enjoy it even more, super!

Ah, ok, so essentially B&K 5128 does measure a bit differently between 200-1000Hz, the B&K has a slight hump at 600Hz vs GRAS. It is interesting to read your updated details in your Post#2 in this thread. I think it's interesting to understand your thought process behind the headphone, and some of the development work you've done, that does add some validity & reasoning to your decisions you made for the headphone.

 

[Robbo99999]

Yes I did. And sold it because priorities had changed

Ha, life! Which Dan Clark did you own? (Or did you mean other high end headphones?)

 

[Thomas Savage]

Why sir , what fantastic Cans you have ..

Thanks for the review Amirm, yet again we see another brilliant headphone bought to market from Dan Clark . It's a treat to read his response here , all very encouraging.

I do need a new pair of headphones..

Thomas ' richer for being poorer ' Savage

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

Ha, life! Which Dan Clark did you own? (Or did you mean other high end headphones?)

Ether2, Expanse, stealth and many others like susvara lcd5 lcd3 hd800 and couple mote which I forget.

 

[JakeK]

The comment simply refers to the fact that circumaural headphones lose bass if the ear pad isn’t sealed well to the head. How much bass loss occurs is a function of the acoustic impedance of the headphone.

Closed cups increase the acoustic impedance, so when you have a seal issue, such as with glasses, the bass loss may be higher than it is with an open back headphone. For the most part this only comes into play with glasses or very thick hair.

Acoustic impedance is a new term for me as was acoustic competence until I googled. Google AI says 'Acoustic impedance refers to the resistance that a medium presents to the propagation of sound waves within it'. An open back would have have very low resistance to sound. I think I get it that anything that affects the seal of a headphone will change the impedance and sound, more so with a closed design. Is that right?

I used to think you just put them on your head or in your ear and that was that lol! I understand more about why you have to jam IEMS right in your ear to make them sound good and why it just takes a tiny movement to break the seal and spoil that and it's one of the reasons I dislike them. I normally wear glasses at my PC with headphones now so that's an extra reason to choose open back that I wasn't aware of.

To me lower impedance means it draws more current and absorbs more power. So a low acoustic impedance open back design will draw more current and move more air to produce the same bass?

Having read this review and thread I really want to hear these and I'm starting a shortlist of upgrades from my HD560s for use at my desk. I didn't have a strong urge to upgrade and in fact I was looking to spend up to 1000 on new speakers for the desk instead but maybe with these I won't need speakers much.

I've read some headphone amp reviews here but never needed one before. What desktop HPA would everyone recommend for these? They clearly need power. Maybe these don't need much adjustment but I think it would be good if the HPA can do EQ as well.

 

[Chagall]

Does anyone know if someone has done a direct comparison between the NX and the NXO? Definitely curious.

DMS made a comparison with Noire X and E3:

Interesting to see all the measurements he did or was provided by DCA (BK 4128c, KB 5001, 45CA, BK 5128, and open canal mic measurements on his head).

• Positive: when he EQed peeks, he gets on his head, it sounds to him E3, but open. DMS didn't hear a difference with glasses on or off.
• Negative: depending on how you hear it, treble might be spicy for some users, so some EQ may be needed

Very interesting video by Headfi with @Dan Clark

Topics:

• comparison with Noire X - similar objective measurements, but different subjective experience
• perceptually, bass on XO is better than the X, although it looks on the measurements like the X should have more
• difficulty of getting bass with open headphones that follows the Harmon target
• importance of BK 5128 during R&D for both X and XO
• other various topics after

This is quite an achievement @Dan Clark
Although I have E3, a DCA open back is really tickling my fancy.

 

[PenguinMusic]

What do you mean by outperform? Stick closer to a target that you may or may not like?
IEMs have their own set of problems compared to headphones, and some people (me included) don't like to shove things in their ears.

Yes...
Assuming that being as close to the Harman curve says the headphone is sounding close to what the music is meant to sound like.
To be honest, I was a little sceptic at first...
But after trying my own profile curves, it turned out that the Harman curve sounds like the best compromise in most cases...

All it tells is one frequency response on one measurement rig (that also changes depending on the placement of the headphone), which is better than not having the measurement at all.

Sure, but if the same measurements are reprocudced from several testers we can assume that these mesaurements are close to what you'll get with your "rig".
Or am I missing something again here ?

Same FR after EQ on a measurement rig that may not be the same FR on your head - that's why it sounds different. Headphones can couple differently for different people while listening, based on their HRTF.

I hear you. But from the globality of your reply you say that FR tells it all.
So if I understand this correctly, two headphones that have the same FR should sound almost the same.
I can admit small variations but a huge difference (at least to my ears... I understand that ears are no measurement tools (yes @solderdude I try to learn as much as I can from you !) and that is "reproductible" (same impressions on different listening sessions)... ?

No, it's all baked in the frequency response you get with a one set of headphones on your head versus a different set of headphones. Although, some headphones present sound unlike any other, due to the angle of the drivers and the distance to the ears (this is only an opinion). Take HD800s, for example, with their soundstage. Is that baked in FR, I don't know.

After my Moondrop Venus broke, I took the old headphones out.
Sony MDR-Z7 that I used to love sounded really "muddy", like veiled even after EQ.
I took the Dan Clark AEON Flow Closed back with EQ. Nice but to my ears it was lacking some bass (and I am not a boom-boom fan AT ALL !).
The Oppo PM-1 sounded the closest to what I am looking for.

I also decided to take out the old Pioneer SE-505 that I bought some time ago...
Man, that headphone is now over 50 years old ! It was released in 1973...
Some current manufacturers should inspire themselves from Pionner : after 50 years, leather is strill fine on both headband and earcuffs ! Even the inner cushion is still intact !

To my greeat surprise, this sounded the best of all headphones At least it was the one that sounded the closest to what I was missing with the Moondrop Venus...
Would be cuirious to have them put on a rig and see what they look like on a measurement rig
And if it turns out that they are totally deviant from the Harman Curve, then so be it...
At least 4ill know what kind of "curve" I am looking for

Sure, I think most of them EQed to the same curve won't sound exactly the same.

Really, not AT ALL. And this is my squrprise : not even close !

 

[Chagall]

I hear you. But from the globality of your reply you say that FR tells it all.
So if I understand this correctly, two headphones that have the same FR should sound almost the same.

It should sound the same on that rig. For them to sound the same to you, though, you’d need to take a measurement at your eardrum and then EQ them to match.

I’m not trying to downplay the value of rig measurements, because the great thing about measurement rigs is that, in the majority of cases, applying EQ based on the rig will improve the headphone’s sound. There’s definitely a correlation there. But to get the most out of it, some manual adjustments are necessary.

Personally, I’ve stopped worrying about whether something follows a specific curve after EQ and just focus on my preference. If I want more bass, I add it. If I want less treble, I adjust it. Also, having multiple headphones that sound different is a plus for me - I like the versatility that offers.

 

[tikky]

This looks like a very good contender for mixing and mastering on headphones.

 

[Dan Clark]

To me lower impedance means it draws more current and absorbs more power. So a low acoustic impedance open back design will draw more current and move more air to produce the same bass?

I've read some headphone amp reviews here but never needed one before. What desktop HPA would everyone recommend for these? They clearly need power. Maybe these don't need much adjustment but I think it would be good if the HPA can do EQ as well.

It’s not quite that the headphone will draw more power, it’s that the headphone can push more air if the seal is imperfect.

In a high acoustic impedance design, when the seal breaks you can’t build pressure in the cup as easily, the pressure just bleeds out causing bass rolloff. If the driver has low impedance it effectively can push more air, or current in your electrical analogy, to maintain the pressure, or voltage. If you think of the driver as an amplifier, to use your electrical analogy, when the amp has high source impedance it can’t push much power into a low impedance load, but it will do just fine when the load impedance is high relative to the source. In an amp this results in distortion, in a transducer it results in bass loss. There’s a bit more to it than that but that’s the gist…

 

[Robbo99999]

Ether2, Expanse, stealth and many others like susvara lcd5 lcd3 hd800 and couple mote which I forget.

I've joined you on the HD800 front. Certainly if you don't want to use EQ I imagine some of these Dan Clark headphones would be totally ideal. I'd like to try one of their Harman inspired iterations at some point, I don't really need to though, but maybe some years down the line as I imagine some of the value might trickle down lower priced offerings, perhaps then, perhaps....but I'm certain they're a good buy for people that don't mind spending the cash and getting something excellent out of the box.

 

[Bow_Wazoo]

@Dan Clark

How would you describe the sound difference between X and XO?

 

[Buckchester]

What I meant my secret sauce is unmeasurable characteristics that poster was mentioning, I apologize if I was misunderstood

I think your point is that if two different driver types measure the same, they will sound the same? If so, I agree.

 

[Jimster480]

Honestly the $300 extra is worth it just for how much better it looks than Noire X. Looks good, seems like it sounds good, measures good enough where you probably need nothing more than maybe some tuning for taste. I like it. I'm not looking for a hew pair of headphones right now... but when I will this will probably top the list, even though I'm not a fan of the earpads.
Also I expected an open back version of E3 first, props for bringing out something at a lower price point instead.

I can't imagine ever purchasing something like this based on "looks". No headphone "looks good" in modern culture today anyway and most of us probably don't ever go outside wearing headphones like this.

My favorite headphones are my OG MrSpeakers Aeon Closed. This headphone is the open back version of he Noire X, which means that they are for 2 totally different listeners in totally different scenarios. Therefore the price can't be compared anyway. I have a couple open back headphones and rarely use them due to the lack of isolation. You have to really be in a quiet room or you lose performance quickly and are easily interrupted (as well as interrupting people around you with what sounds like super loud headphones to other people).