Dan Clark NOIRE X Headphone Review

[Robbo99999]

I wonder if it makes sense to buy the Noire X if I have a well-measuring IEMs (Truthear Nova and both Zeros) and a well measuring dongle dac/amp? I'm afraid that I'll be disappointed after spending 999 EUR on this and possibly a new dac/amp... would it be a supersonic insane upgrade, or just a "meh"?

You might get better soundstage from an over ear headphone, but soundstage is a bit of a funny thing and different people perceive it in different ways. With regards to tonality & general sound quality I'm not sure you could expect much improvement. I mean I've not listened to the DCA, but I'm just basing it on my experience of Crinacle Zero Blue IEM vs my various EQ optimised headphones.

 

[Grobbelboy]

I wonder if it makes sense to buy the Noire X if I have a well-measuring IEMs (Truthear Nova and both Zeros) and a well measuring dongle dac/amp? I'm afraid that I'll be disappointed after spending 999 EUR on this and possibly a new dac/amp... would it be a supersonic insane upgrade, or just a "meh"?

Depends on what you want to upgrade exactly. In terms of fidelity you won’t get an upgrade, those IEMs offer everything you can wish for on that front. The different sensation of having cups around your ears instead of something holed up inside your ear could be considered an upgrade, also depending on your tolerance for both.

FWIW, I’ve had the Noire, Expanse, Stealth and now the E3 and am considering going the other way. My EQ’d Zero2 offers exactly what I want from an audio reproduction device (aside from speakers) so I don’t see much reason to keep around an OE headphone.

 

[Zibi]

It's already in the review, 13ohms for the headphone:
View attachment 412321

And in terms of how easy or difficult to drive it's not that difficult to drive:
View attachment 412322
You can see it only sits fractionally higher than the Hifiman HE400SE which I have, and that headphone is super easy to drive with the JDS Labs Atom Amp headphone amp, and even using a European 1V Apple Dongle I run that at around 60% (if I recall) and that's including a negative preamp & EQ although the EQ does boost the 1.5kHz area which will make it louder, but still that's covered off by the negative preamp - yeah, I don't find HE400SE difficult to drive at all and this DCA Noire X only sits fractionally above that. Just get any headphone amp that measures well here on ASR (and is not flagged up by Amir for lacking power) and you'll be fine .

Few points:

• There must be a reason why headphones amplifiers producers state that the recommended headphones impedance range is between 16 to 600ohms. It looks like industry standard. I have checked TEAC, Violectric, Ferrum and Topping. 16 to 30 Ohms is considered low impedance in general.
• If “easy to drive – loud enough” is not the definition of sound quality.
• Some amplifiers makers share in their manuals that their models have current delivery limitations to protect the circuits at high loads. (For example, RME ADI-2 DAC FS on page 12 of the manual).
• Looking at the SINAD results, HP amps drop like a rock between 30 ohms down to 12 ohms due to distortion and noise increase. You can see the measurements at 12 ohms for a few amps at headphones.com. Exp: Ferrum OOR measures SINAD around 115 dB at 30 ohm (EXCELLENT) and 75 dB at 12ohms (FAIR). Even uber expensive pure class A Zähl HM1lands at 75 dB SINAD at 12 ohms.If anyone has SINAD measurements results for any HP amp at 12 ohms loads that are really good please share

Bad news - your amplifier’s performance at 13 ohms will be degraded to FAIR from standard 300 and 30 ohms EXCELLENT performance levels. Good news – it still may be good enough to enjoy the music.

I welcome comments based on specs, engineering principles, and measurements results.

 

[Dan Clark]

Few points:

• There must be a reason why headphones amplifiers producers state that the recommended headphones impedance range is between 16 to 600ohms. It looks like industry standard. I have checked TEAC, Violectric, Ferrum and Topping. 16 to 30 Ohms is considered low impedance in general.
• If “easy to drive – loud enough” is not the definition of sound quality.
• Some amplifiers makers share in their manuals that their models have current delivery limitations to protect the circuits at high loads. (For example, RME ADI-2 DAC FS on page 12 of the manual).
• Looking at the SINAD results, HP amps drop like a rock between 30 ohms down to 12 ohms due to distortion and noise increase. You can see the measurements at 12 ohms for a few amps at headphones.com. Exp: Ferrum OOR measures SINAD around 115 dB at 30 ohm (EXCELLENT) and 75 dB at 12ohms (FAIR). Even uber expensive pure class A Zähl HM1lands at 75 dB SINAD at 12 ohms.If anyone has SINAD measurements results for any HP amp at 12 ohms loads that are really good please share

Bad news - your amplifier’s performance at 13 ohms will be degraded to FAIR from standard 300 and 30 ohms EXCELLENT performance levels. Good news – it still may be good enough to enjoy the music.

I welcome comments based on specs, engineering principles, and measurements results.

You are correct, IMHO. There are in fact "synergies" that need to be paid attention to, and it's not magic.

Some vendors make real efforts to handle lower impedance loads. You can always tell when power doubles as load decreases 50%, for example 1W at 32ohms and 2W at 16ohms. Chord and Schitt are two vendors that do this with virtually all their current products (I think Schiit's OTL/all tube products don't).

Another factor is output impedance. Believe it or not some vendors produce headphone amps with 10, or even 150 ohm outputs. If you connect a 12 ohm headphone to an amp with a 10ohm output Z almost half the power is dissipated in the output stage rather than available to a headphone. A 150ohm output (which used to be a standard, oddly) wastes over 90% of power in the output stage.

Bottom line is check to verify an amp has ~1 ohm (or lower) output impedance.

As a last comment, higher output impedances also create "synergies" with dynamic headphones because they have nonlinear impedances (unlike most planars) which can and does affect frequency response.

 

[DEF]

You are correct, IMHO. There are in fact "synergies" that need to be paid attention to, and it's not magic.

Wow. Now you earned my respect. Company challenges Audiosciencereview.
That's quite a stunt. Let's see where that goes.

 

[Dan Clark]

Wow. Now you earned my respect. Company challenges Audiosciencereview.
That's quite a stunt. Let's see where that goes.

Nah, the comments were not subjective they were objective statements of engineering fact, not "low output impedance sounds better" type of statements...

The OP I was responding to made some incomplete assertions, that's all. I'd be very surprised if someone thought this went against the objective orientation of the site...

Synergy can be used in many ways, it could be a "mystical" opinion like "this amp had better synergy and made XYZ happen like magic" or it can be "the output impedance is a mismatch that will result either in high distortion at low volume or may change the frequency response of a dynamic headphone" assertion that can be measured and verified.

While there's room for subjective assessment in my mind and life I seldom make comments like that on ASR, I think I did once when asked for a subjective opinion but that's the exception...

 

[usern]

As a last comment, higher output impedances also create "synergies" with dynamic headphones because they have nonlinear impedances (unlike most planars) which can and does affect frequency response.

This is something that doesn't get much attention or understanding. I didn't pay attention to it until I compared my audio interface headphone out with dedicated Topping amplifier headphone out and they sounded different with dynamic drivers headphone. Turns out the audio interface has higher output impedance which objectively explains the difference. I imagine amps that are recommended to pair HD600 or HD650 to make them sound "warm" are high output impedance as well for example.

This is pretty nice explanation:

Spoiler

 

[Robbo99999]

Few points:

• There must be a reason why headphones amplifiers producers state that the recommended headphones impedance range is between 16 to 600ohms. It looks like industry standard. I have checked TEAC, Violectric, Ferrum and Topping. 16 to 30 Ohms is considered low impedance in general.
• If “easy to drive – loud enough” is not the definition of sound quality.
• Some amplifiers makers share in their manuals that their models have current delivery limitations to protect the circuits at high loads. (For example, RME ADI-2 DAC FS on page 12 of the manual).
• Looking at the SINAD results, HP amps drop like a rock between 30 ohms down to 12 ohms due to distortion and noise increase. You can see the measurements at 12 ohms for a few amps at headphones.com. Exp: Ferrum OOR measures SINAD around 115 dB at 30 ohm (EXCELLENT) and 75 dB at 12ohms (FAIR). Even uber expensive pure class A Zähl HM1lands at 75 dB SINAD at 12 ohms.If anyone has SINAD measurements results for any HP amp at 12 ohms loads that are really good please share

Bad news - your amplifier’s performance at 13 ohms will be degraded to FAIR from standard 300 and 30 ohms EXCELLENT performance levels. Good news – it still may be good enough to enjoy the music.

I welcome comments based on specs, engineering principles, and measurements results.

Do what you want, waste your time finding "synergies" that don't exist. This headphone is not hard to drive, plenty of good headphone amps have been measured here on ASR, read the reviews and choose one, it doesn't really matter. Here's one I picked based on simply scrolling through the most recent reviews here & was the first one I clicked on, it's not expensive:

Don't tell me that's not gonna be able the drive your 13ohm headphone adequately! Just go through the reviews & pick one, it's not complicated. It's not a difficult headphone to drive if you pick a good measuring headphone amp here on ASR, plenty to choose from, don't make it hard for yourself.

 

[Chagall]

The price of "synergy".

Option A) HDV 820 DAC/amp (45 ohms output impedance) 2600 eur + HD600 300 eur = random boost around 100hz on HD600 for 2900 eur - you may love it or hate it and still need to EQ to taste

Option B) Topping E30 II 150 eur + Topping L30 II 150 eur (<0.1 ohm) + HD600 300 eur + EQ APO = sound tweeked exactly to your preference for 600 eur

L30 II 2,7W @32 ohm and 3,5W @16 ohms (company spec)
Amir measured 3,4W @ 32 ohm and stable @12 ohm load

There will be a measurable difference; no one says it won't, but finding that unicorn will take time and money. What if you then change your headphones? Do it all over again?

 

[Mauro]

Few points:

• There must be a reason why headphones amplifiers producers state that the recommended headphones impedance range is between 16 to 600ohms. It looks like industry standard. I have checked TEAC, Violectric, Ferrum and Topping. 16 to 30 Ohms is considered low impedance in general.
• If “easy to drive – loud enough” is not the definition of sound quality.
• Some amplifiers makers share in their manuals that their models have current delivery limitations to protect the circuits at high loads. (For example, RME ADI-2 DAC FS on page 12 of the manual).
• Looking at the SINAD results, HP amps drop like a rock between 30 ohms down to 12 ohms due to distortion and noise increase. You can see the measurements at 12 ohms for a few amps at headphones.com. Exp: Ferrum OOR measures SINAD around 115 dB at 30 ohm (EXCELLENT) and 75 dB at 12ohms (FAIR). Even uber expensive pure class A Zähl HM1lands at 75 dB SINAD at 12 ohms.If anyone has SINAD measurements results for any HP amp at 12 ohms loads that are really good please share

Bad news - your amplifier’s performance at 13 ohms will be degraded to FAIR from standard 300 and 30 ohms EXCELLENT performance levels. Good news – it still may be good enough to enjoy the music.

I welcome comments based on specs, engineering principles, and measurements results.

Is 75dB or 115dB relevant when headphones have much higher distortion than the amp? Serious question: over which threshold will distortion be perceivable even with DCA headphones that have very low distortion figures?

Maybe @Dan Clark was not referring just to distortion?

 

[Dan Clark]

Is 75dB or 115dB relevant when headphones have much higher distortion than the amp? Serious question: over which threshold will distortion be perceivable even with DCA headphones that have very low distortion figures?

Maybe @Dan Clark was not referring just to distortion?

I was referring to the fact that literally frequency response can change for a headphone with a complex impedance if the source impedance is high-enough relative to the headphone load. This happens with speakers, too. With complex impedance if you have high source output impedance you create a voltage diveder that varies by frequency, literally causing measurable response differences. This is not an issue for most planars, if they have a flat impedance.

Did I understand your question?

 

[Mauro]

I was referring to the fact that literally frequency response can change for a headphone with a complex impedance if the source impedance is high-enough relative to the headphone load. This happens with speakers, too. With complex impedance if you have high source output impedance you create a voltage diveder that varies by frequency, literally causing measurable response differences. This is not an issue for most planars, if they have a flat impedance.

Did I understand your question?

I get the implications with swinging impendances, but not with flat ones..

 

[Dan Clark]

I get the implications with swinging impendances, but not with flat ones..

I used the dynamic drivers to make the case for “synergy” a bit more obvious because it literally can affect frequency response, which is easy to get your brain around. However, that isn’t what’s relevant for planars with linear Z. Let me restate…

There is no frequency effect with planars that have flat Z, here the concerns are is the power going to keep doubling as load halves, indicating the designer had low Z loads in mind for optimal power delivery, and at those lower impedances does amp distortion fall apart?

As you can see with a lot of ASR measurements, some companies produce amps where distortion isn’t very affected by low Z loads, but there are also a lot where low Z causes an increase in distortion at all levels or at midrange and high frequencies. Some the distortion may be below audible, so even if there’s more who cares, but there are others where the distortion climbs too high even though it’s not clipping.

 

[Mauro]

I used the dynamic drivers to make the case for “synergy” a bit more obvious because it literally can affect frequency response, which is easy to get your brain around. However, that isn’t what’s relevant for planars with linear Z. Let me restate…

There is no frequency effect with planars that have flat Z, here the concerns are is the power going to keep doubling as load halves, indicating the designer had low Z loads in mind for optimal power delivery, and at those lower impedances does amp distortion fall apart?

As you can see with a lot of ASR measurements, some companies produce amps where distortion isn’t very affected by low Z loads, but there are also a lot where low Z causes an increase in distortion at all levels or at midrange and high frequencies. Some the distortion may be below audible, so even if there’s more who cares, but there are others where the distortion climbs too high even though it’s not clipping.

Which is the aspect of sound quality that changes the most in your opinion with lesser amps? Is it a lack of bass impact?

Yes, I see that distortion values are not good with some amps not designed for low impedances, but I don’t get when it is perceivable. I am not even sure that for example bass impact is affected by group delay as some publications suggest (for example SoundOnSound Phil Ward) and not distortion. This is to me very unclear. I can hear bookshelf speakers wobbling at low frequencies, and planar headphones producing static noise, but I didn’t hear in a direct comparison a topping a90d any different from a soundblaster g6 with 35 ohm He1000v2 apart from volume. Unluckily I didn’t have an Ether CX at the time, so I would like to understand from the savvy guys

(I appreciate you are taking the time to answer to all of us)

 

[Salt]

Just take amp that gives sufficient current at, let's say, 10 Ohms, and sufficient voltage at 800 Ohms, and this without audible distortions, and you're done.

 

[Dan Clark]

Which is the aspect of sound quality that changes the most in your opinion with lesser amps? Is it a lack of bass impact?

Yes, I see that distortion values are not good with some amps not designed for low impedances, but I don’t get when it is perceivable. I am not even sure that for example bass impact is affected by group delay as some publications suggest (for example SoundOnSound Phil Ward) and not distortion. This is to me very unclear. I can hear bookshelf speakers wobbling at low frequencies, and planar headphones producing static noise, but I didn’t hear in a direct comparison a topping a90d any different from a soundblaster g6 with 35 ohm He1000v2 apart from volume. Unluckily I didn’t have an Ether CX at the time, so I would like to understand from the savvy guys

(I appreciate you are taking the time to answer to all of us)

An opinion like “lacks bass impact” is complex, I’ll avoid that on this forum in particular because I don’t know how to answer that with objective certainty other than “is it clipping due to inadequate power at low frequencies and low impedance?”

EDIT: Almost every time I hear anyone speak about “static” they’re talking about hard clipping. A few times it was a buzz related to a contaminant.

I have seen several studies that indicate odd harmonics are more audible than even, by an order of magnitude. I’ve seen several citations like 1% is the threshold for even and 0.1% is the perception threshold for odd order distortion but there is almost certainly a frequency dependency as well. I know I have several times heard problems via tones, which are more revealing than music, 60dB down in the midrange region.

I pulled this AES presentation that I think did a good job of summarizing some of the complexity in the context of car audio, where you do have a higher noise floor and thus masking, so keep that in mind with their conclusions. But it does summarize some of the known research well…

https://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=650

 

[Mauro]

An opinion like “lacks bass impact” is complex, I’ll avoid that on this forum in particular because I don’t know how to answer that with objective certainty other than “is it clipping due to inadequate power at low frequencies and low impedance?”

EDIT: Almost every time I hear anyone speak about “static” they’re talking about hard clipping. A few times it was a buzz related to a contaminant.

I have seen several studies that indicate odd harmonics are more audible than even, by an order of magnitude. I’ve seen several citations like 1% is the threshold for even and 0.1% is the perception threshold for odd order distortion but there is almost certainly a frequency dependency as well. I know I have several times heard problems via tones, which are more revealing than music, 60dB down in the midrange region.

I pulled this AES presentation that I think did a good job of summarizing some of the complexity in the context of car audio, where you do have a higher noise floor and thus masking, so keep that in mind with their conclusions. But it does summarize some of the known research well…

https://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=650

Thanks for giving some numbers and references. Informative. Sounds ASRish..

I love the first paragraph..difficult life in forums, huh?!

 

[frix]

I haven't (not read good things about them tbh) and it may be that as I have 800 exactly how I want it with a little EQ applied, a close back to 'better' that may just not be available, any headphone to better it may be very difficult to come by and if it can be done, the cost may not be worthwhile.

I have the HD800 about 12years now. Using them with EQ from the start (refined over the years)
Nothing could replace them for me and I've tried many things. The comfort and build also plays a big part.
So yeah I doubt a closed back could ever replace it but it might be a good complement.

 

[DEF]

I have the HD800 about 12years now. Using them with EQ from the start (refined over the years)
Nothing could replace them for me and I've tried many things. The comfort and build also plays a big part.
So yeah I doubt a closed back could ever replace it but it might be a good complement.

For me, the comfort is undoubtedly one of the worse ones.

 

[Zibi]

Is 75dB or 115dB relevant when headphones have much higher distortion than the amp? Serious question: over which threshold will distortion be perceivable even with DCA headphones that have very low distortion figures?

Maybe @Dan Clark was not referring just to distortion?

A this point of the conversation I could start my comment with something like – “Dan and I think that….”

More seriously, your question “Is 75dB or 115dB relevant when headphones have much higher distortion than the amp?” is fair. It actually extends to the entire audio chain including the quality of the recording on one end and your ears on the other end.

You can test your sensitivity to distortion at this site.

Klippel GmbH - Diagnostics of Audio Systems

On the other hand we can not suddenly say “ well, lower SINAD does not really matter”.

I can see a risk of bias like this “it measures great at 300 ohms, it measures great at 30 ohms, then it must perform great at 12 ohms.” No, not necessary, some amps may hold on very well, some do not.

Even more, if EXCELLENT amps drop SINAD down to FAIR at 12 Ohms where do GOOD amps land at 12 ohms? SINAD ~50 dB POOR? Then the distortion would be audible by most experienced listeners. So should the rule be “ if you have headphones with less than 16 ohms impedance then it is not recommended to use an amps below EXCELLENT from Amir’s ranking” ?