Dan Clark Expanse Headphone Review

[Doodski]

Would a Topping DX3 Pro+ be sufficient to drive these?

The Schiit Magni Heresey as a headphone amp kills the Topping DX3 Pro+. (Note the pic indicates DX3Pro but it is a DX3Pro+)

 

[preload]

Dan Clark Audio EXPANSE Review: Interview, Measurements, Impressions

Its amazing how you can create a $500 headphone and convince people to pay $4000 for it...

www.head-fi.org

I'm also wondering how much bass boost the Expanse can tolerate compared to the Stealth.

 

[Grobbelboy]

The Schiit Magni Heresey as a headphone amp kills the Topping DX3 Pro+. (Note the pic indicates DX3Pro but it is a DX3Pro+)

Good to know, but atm I have the Topping and was wondering if it could provide enough power - contemplating (not entirely seriously) to ditch most of my current cans and replace them with a TOTL Expanse to ‘never’ have that itch for an upgrade again.

 

[majingotan]

Good to know, but atm I have the Topping and was wondering if it could provide enough power - contemplating (not entirely seriously) to ditch most of my current cans and replace them with a TOTL Expanse to ‘never’ have that itch for an upgrade again.

I demoed the Expanse out of the Apple Dongle (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...pple-vs-google-usb-c-headphone-adapters.5541/) and even with its 31 mw of power it got loud enough for the Expanse without clipping! Amps with almost zero output impedance should have ZERO issues driving the expanse to 114 dB+ SPL. The key here is the output impedance of the jack to be able to drive the Expanse with zero clipping and loud.

I'm also wondering how much bass boost the Expanse can tolerate compared to the Stealth.

The Expanse out of the Apple Dongle has slightly more midbass boost than the Stealth which makes it slightly warmer sounding. Stealth can sometime sound thin on rock music for me while the Expanse and Aeon X Open are perfect for my preference

 

[Dealux]

lol Apple dongle. Stop being so obnoxious and buy an actual desktop amp. Dongles are only good for IEMs.

 

[majingotan]

lol Apple dongle. Stop being so obnoxious and buy an actual desktop amp. Dongles are only good for IEMs.

Hard to believe but even I was extremely surprised. That’s when I found out by just trying it out that expanse is more voltage driven than current. ZMF Caldera OTOH clips at any volume with the dongle and is sounding with authority off the dCS Lina stack

 

[Dan Clark]

@Dan Clark
I read a lot on other forums about how important "burn in" is in Stealth and Expanse. I always thought that was an audiophile myth. However, I now saw that this is apparently also recommended by your company in the Expanse (and/or Stealth?) manual.
Since my impression is that you usually have good technical reasons for your actions, could you please explain what is happening and why this is necessary? Is this different with planars than with dynamic headphones?
I ask because this may not be unimportant when listening to a new product for tryout.

Sure. The diaphragm is a thin PET membrane with aluminum traces that have been pleated. The PET slowly detentions to a steady state, mostly during factory burn in, but the Al traces which are substantially less elastic take a while longer to settle to their final geometry as the driver flexes repeatedly. When the system settles the diaphragm tension and motion become more uniform and tension reduces slightly.

Dynamic headphones typically burn in through a different mechanism, where the driver surround and spider (if one is used) loosens/softens to a steady state.

Think of it almost like new blue jeans which are stiff until used and washed a few times then become stable.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Sure. The diaphragm is a thin PET membrane with aluminum traces that have been pleated. The PET slowly detentions to a steady state, mostly during factory burn in, but the Al traces which are substantially less elastic take a while longer to settle to their final geometry as the driver flexes repeatedly. When the system settles the diaphragm tension and motion become more uniform and tension reduces slightly.

Dynamic headphones typically burn in through a different mechanism, where the driver surround and spider (if one is used) loosens/softens to a steady state.

Think of it almost like new blue jeans which are stiff until used and washed a few times then become stable.

Thanks for the answer! What does this mean for the test listening before buying? Can I get a good impression even if the headphones are brand new?

 

[solderdude]

Dynamic headphones typically burn in through a different mechanism, where the driver surround and spider (if one is used) loosens/softens to a steady state.

Just curious ... do you happen to know which dynamic headphone drivers use a spider ? (I have never seen one but might exist)

 

[solderdude]

Hard to believe but even I was extremely surprised. That’s when I found out by just trying it out that expanse is more voltage driven than current. ZMF Caldera OTOH clips at any volume with the dongle and is sounding with authority off the dCS Lina stack

ALL dynamic (thus also planar magnetic) drivers are current driven.
You probably are referring to the rising impedance at lower frequencies which means that it is probably best to connect this headphone to an amp with a low output resistance (so a true voltage source)

Electrostatic drivers are voltage driven (but draw some current when the capacitance is charged)

Amps with almost zero output impedance should have ZERO issues driving the expanse to 114 dB+ SPL. The key here is the output impedance of the jack to be able to drive the Expanse with zero clipping and loud.

Output resistance and max output voltage and current (so basically power) are not related though.

It is easy to construct a low output R circuit that can only deliver 20mA of current or one that only provides 0.5V.


Sensitivity = 97dB/V (at 400Hz) and 100dB/V at 100Hz so even from an apple dongle (US, not EU) you can play at quite decent levels without distortion and only draws 40mA max at those levels.
Just not impressively loud levels with thundering bass, you will need quite a bit more power (voltage and current) than a dongle can provide.

 

[ayane]

Thanks for the answer! What does this mean for the test listening before buying? Can I get a good impression even if the headphones are brand new?

You really don't need to worry about burn-in with DCA headphones. In this old Innerfidelity video, Dan explains how drivers are burned in for "a minimum of 48 hours" (11:05) before drivers are matched. It's take care of during manufacturing.

 

[ayane]

lol Apple dongle. Stop being so obnoxious and buy an actual desktop amp. Dongles are only good for IEMs.

I don't understand this sentiment at all. A dongle like the E1DA 9038S can comfortably provide 300 mW into 16 ohms. Quadrupling the output power to over 1.2 watts "merely" results in a 6 dB boost in output SPL. For someone who enjoys moderately quiet listening levels, paying a lot of money to get a non-portable solution that only delivers a few extra dB is a non-starter. Unless the headphones really do need the power (and you find yourself maxing out the output), there's really no need to buy a dedicated amplifier. Aside from low-impedance and low-sensitivity edge cases, dongles are plenty capable - more so than audiophiles give them credit for.

 

[staticV3]

A dongle like the E1DA 9038S can comfortably provide 300 mW into 16 ohms.

Mine does 620mW per channel (both driven) at 1% THD+N, 16Ω load ^^
See here
(Same Amp section as the one Wolf tested, not sure what went wrong there)

 

[ayane]

Mine does 620mW per channel (both driven) at 1% THD+N, 16Ω load ^^
See here
(Same Amp section as the one Wolf tested, not sure what went wrong there)

Thanks for the data! Perhaps the one Wolf tested was the Susumu 2000 variant? Regardless, the point still stands; a "mere" 6 dB on top of >600 mW is a whopping >2.4 W.

 

[Dealux]

I don't understand this sentiment at all. A dongle like the E1DA 9038S can comfortably provide 300 mW into 16 ohms. Quadrupling the output power to over 1.2 watts "merely" results in a 6 dB boost in output SPL. For someone who enjoys moderately quiet listening levels, paying a lot of money to get a non-portable solution that only delivers a few extra dB is a non-starter. Unless the headphones really do need the power (and you find yourself maxing out the output), there's really no need to buy a dedicated amplifier. Aside from low-impedance and low-sensitivity edge cases, dongles are plenty capable - more so than audiophiles give them credit for.

But that one has significantly more power than the Apple one.

I wouldn't personally trust dongles so much because if you stick them into a noisy USB port from a desktop PC you might actually get some audible noise. I also think a dedicated DAC/amp set-up gives you more features/connectivity options.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

You really don't need to worry about burn-in with DCA headphones. In this old Innerfidelity video, Dan explains how drivers are burned in for "a minimum of 48 hours" (11:05) before drivers are matched. It's take care of during manufacturing.

What i meant is this (from a sheet included with the Expanse; source):

 

[JanesJr1]

But that one has significantly more power than the Apple one.

I wouldn't personally trust dongles so much because if you stick them into a noisy USB port from a desktop PC you might actually get some audible noise. I also think a dedicated DAC/amp set-up gives you more features/connectivity options.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but I've used a several dongles on a bunch of PC's and never had a noise problem. (I do follow the advice of the ASR Windows Quality thread on Windows sound set-up.) You're of course correct about the connectivity issue, and I do have a desktop DAC/Amp. But on the other hand, my S9 Pro dongle was not very expensive, and has single-handedly allowed me to move my low impedance / high current DCA Noire 'phones with me as I change locations daily, and drives the headphones nicely. (Although it's probably only a handful of USB dongles, perhaps driven in balanced mode, that could drive those particular head phones. Or something battery driven.)

 

[tifune]

Mine does 620mW per channel (both driven) at 1% THD+N, 16Ω load ^^
See here
(Same Amp section as the one Wolf tested, not sure what went wrong there)

Could the USB port be a constraint? For example, I'm not sure my S10 5G is capable of supporting a 1.2W power draw. I googled around a bit but, as you might expect, all hits are for how much the S10 can draw, not supply.

 

[Mozi]

What i meant is this (from a sheet included with the Expanse; source):

View attachment 233168

I have to admit I did buy these headphones. I would not say 'burn-in' is necessary to enjoy them out of the box, at all. That said over the past week I (unreliably, subjectively) do feel as if it the sound may be growing touch more... warm? relaxed? But I can't really trust my own perceptions there. In any case really don't worry about it. I think if they didn't include that line people who believe in burn-in would notice and people who don't, probably wouldn't. It would be nice to have some hard data/measurements available on their web site or something that demonstrate the before/after difference I guess. But I wouldn't factor this into either my purchasing decision or how to go about listening to them afterwards.

 

[Dealux]

I have to admit I did buy these headphones. I would not say 'burn-in' is necessary to enjoy them out of the box, at all. That said over the past week I (unreliably, subjectively) do feel as if it the sound may be growing touch more... warm? relaxed? But I can't really trust my own perceptions there. In any case really don't worry about it. I think if they didn't include that line people who believe in burn-in would notice and people who don't, probably wouldn't. It would be nice to have some hard data/measurements available on their web site or something that demonstrate the before/after difference I guess. But I wouldn't factor this into either my purchasing decision or how to go about listening to them afterwards.

I've seen people mention already that the Expanse might be too dark in the upper treble. Have you listened to any music with strings? Do they sound muffled or too soft? Or is there plenty of "air" in the treble already?