Dan Clark Expanse Headphone Review

[Robbo99999]

To their defense - each ear is unique and perhaps there is a different seal or so.
If you ever had in ears - as comparision and you move it just a bit, the amount of audible bass changes drastically.

Well, I decided to run the numbers on the headphone sensitivity that Amir measured at 425Hz and translate that to sensitivity at 1kHz and also in the bass at 30Hz to work out what kind of SPL levels you can reach at 1kHz and 30Hz with a 5.1V DAC and a headphone amp that is capable of 14W (and I guess his headphone amp has a High Gain setting where it multiplies voltage of the DAC by around a factor of 4 times).

Amir's Sensitivity Measurement at 425Hz translated to Senstivity at 1kHz: answer is 98.6dB/V at 1kHz

With a 5.1V DAC and amp at Unity Gain what SPL can you get at 1kHz: answer is 112.8dB at 1kHz


With a 5.1V DAC and High Gain in amp (x4 factor of voltage) what SPL can you get in the bass at 30Hz: answer is 129.5dB in the bass at 30Hz


Note: in the pic above the sensitivity in bass increased by +5dB as bass is 5dB louder than 1kHz as you can see in the frequency response measurement, also impedence increases to 28 ohms in the bass according to Amir's measurement.

So if his setup is capable of well over 113dB at 1kHz and equal to 130dB in the bass and he's returning the headphone because it doesn't go loud enough then I think you have to question his hearing or at least make him aware that he'll probably be even more deaf soon if he's listening at or close to those levels. Or maybe we're not fully understanding the capability of his system based on what he's said, (or maybe he doesn't even own the Expanse at all!).

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Thinking about getting the DCA Noire as my compact, closed back traveling phones, do you all think a Topping G5 has enough power?

Yes, more than enough. Don't worry.

 

[Rthomas]

Well, I decided to run the numbers on the headphone sensitivity that Amir measured at 425Hz and translate that to sensitivity at 1kHz and also in the bass at 30Hz to work out what kind of SPL levels you can reach at 1kHz and 30Hz with a 5.1V DAC and a headphone amp that is capable of 14W (and I guess his headphone amp has a High Gain setting where it multiplies voltage of the DAC by around a factor of 4 times).

Amir's Sensitivity Measurement at 425Hz translated to Senstivity at 1kHz: answer is 98.6dB/V at 1kHz
View attachment 240224
With a 5.1V DAC and amp at Unity Gain what SPL can you get at 1kHz: answer is 112.8dB at 1kHz

View attachment 240225
With a 5.1V DAC and High Gain in amp (x4 factor of voltage) what SPL can you get in the bass at 30Hz: answer is 129.5dB in the bass at 30Hz

View attachment 240226
Note: in the pic above the sensitivity in bass increased by +5dB as bass is 5dB louder than 1kHz as you can see in the frequency response measurement, also impedence increases to 28 ohms in the bass according to Amir's measurement.

So if his setup is capable of well over 113dB at 1kHz and equal to 130dB in the bass and he's returning the headphone because it doesn't go loud enough then I think you have to question his hearing or at least make him aware that he'll probably be even more deaf soon if he's listening at or close to those levels. Or maybe we're not fully understanding the capability of his system based on what he's said, (or maybe he doesn't even own the Expanse at all!).

It's funny how nobody ever asks about the hearing ability of our golden eared reviewers

Tyll Hertsens was honest enough to retire when his audiologist told him that his hearing was seriously compromised.

Bob Katz gets his hearing checked every month I believe.

Random deep pocketed headfiers using $15000 speaker amps with headphones? Most over the age of 40 or 50 and claiming to use their headphones multiple hours a day? My guess is seriously compromised hearing and wonderful imaginations to pick out all kinds of subtle differences in timbre, imaging, detail and FR

What a joke our hobby is sometimes.....

 

[Jimbob54]

(or maybe he doesn't even own the Expanse at all!).

There are many elements of @srkbear findings on the Expanse worthy of challenge and further enquiry. But I'm not sure this element is an avenue that is appropriate to pursue and have meaningful dialogue on.

 

[Robbo99999]

There are many elements of @srkbear findings on the Expanse worthy of challenge and further enquiry. But I'm not sure this element is an avenue that is appropriate to pursue and have meaningful dialogue on.

I don't care too much whether he actually owns an Expanse or not, it was a possible reason for the large discrepancy in the numbers vs his reported experience, but you're right that it doesn't need pursuing which is kind of why I put it in brackets. Point is, the Expanse is not as hard to drive as the dude was making out, which is why I ran the numbers on it. (Plus it helps if he realises he's damaging his hearing)

 

[Robbo99999]

It's funny how nobody ever asks about the hearing ability of our golden eared reviewers

Tyll Hertsens was honest enough to retire when his audiologist told him that his hearing was seriously compromised.

Bob Katz gets his hearing checked every month I believe.

Random deep pocketed headfiers using $15000 speaker amps with headphones? Most over the age of 40 or 50 and claiming to use their headphones multiple hours a day? My guess is seriously compromised hearing and wonderful imaginations to pick out all kinds of subtle differences in timbre, imaging, detail and FR

What a joke our hobby is sometimes.....

Some good & scary points, I'd be worried to get my own hearing checked out, I'm not a reviewer so it doesn't really have a wider implication beyond myself, but I remember about a decade ago I had my ears cleaned out and it was amazing how much louder everything sounded and how much more clarity there was in the world, so I'm sure I've got at least some wax related hearing decrease. I wasn't aware that was the reason that Tyll disappeared from the scene, but it does make sense that if you've suddenly become aware that your main way of enjoying, experiencing & reviewing headphones has become degraded then it could sort of suck the life out of you for it. It is important for people to look after their ears, and added motivation if you really enjoy music and the equipment that goes with it, and even more so if you're a reviewer.

 

[solderdude]

97dB/V (at 400Hz) and 100dB/V at 100Hz

I don't think the amp mentioned by srkbear is 14W output power in all impedances.
The 5.1V DAC output literally says nothing (I believe it is the D90SE) and it is utterly pointless to make any assumptions about the SPL he was going to reach.
The only info you have is he thought the sensitivity is low (which it is) and that at volume position '2 o clock' he reached 'reasonable listening range'.
The latter is something A: Subjective and B: an unknown as we don't know the volume taper, the gain nor which amp was used (for all we know it is max 14W in power consumption) nor any settings in the source or set negative pre-amp or DAC output voltage range setting.

 

[Robbo99999]

97dB/V (at 400Hz) and 100dB/V at 100Hz

I don't think the amp mentioned by srkbear is 14W output power in all impedances.
The 5V DAC output literally says nothing and it is utterly pointless to make any assumptions about the SPL he was going to reach.
The only info you have is he thought the sensitivity is low (which it is) and that at volume position '2 o clock' he reached 'reasonable listening range'.
The latter is something A: Subjective and B: an unknown as we don't know the volume taper, the gain nor which amp was used (for all we know it is max 14W in power consumption) nor any settings in the source or set negative pre-amp or DAC output voltage range setting.

Well it would certainly help if we know more about his amp. Given his descriptions it sounds ludicrous, and that's backed up by the calculations I showed as long as the assumptions I made were reasonable.....I don't know in what universe a 14W headphone amp wouldn't be able to drive these headphones to dangerous levels whilst having the luxury of 5.1V input.....surely most of said headphone amps have a High Gain feature that multiplies that voltage figure by around 4 times.....and even if that wasn't the case, what would be the worst case scenario for such a headphone amp - hard to imagine it not being able to drive the Expanse to dangerously high levels. I agree it would be useful to get clarification from @srkbear what amp he is actually using & what it's specs are.

 

[solderdude]

Given his descriptions it sounds ludicrous

The only kind of useful description was: At volume position '2 o clock' he reached 'reasonable listening range'.
You should ignore all the other 'technical info' he provided.

All we know is he is planning to return them, despite liking the sound, because of its low sensitivity. I would not make a big deal about it or analyze the thoughts/equipment.

 

[Robbo99999]

The only kind of useful description was: At volume position '2 o clock' he reached 'reasonable listening range'.
You should ignore all the other 'technical info' he provided.

All we know is he is planning to return them, despite liking the sound, because of its low sensitivity. I would not make a big deal about it or analyze the thoughts/equipment.

Well, if we can't be sure to determine the listening levels because we don't know the amp he was using then we can ask him - it's a learning experience, it's putting into perspective his claim that he's returning it due to not being able to drive it loud enough. That's important because it makes it seem that the Expanse is "impossibly difficult" to drive, which is not the case. Of course it's harder to drive than a lot of headphones, but his "sensationalised" post that a 14W amp whilst being fed from a 5.1V DAC can't drive it loud enough creates an absolutely absurd impression that you need to hook these headphones up to a speaker amp or some such nonsense. Also the comment that he feels the bass from his headphones resonating in his chest when he wears the Hifiman headphones is "sensationalist" or worrying as I can't even imagine how that could happen and how loud the headphone would have to be to create that effect - the post smacked of nonsense or dangerous listening levels, both of which needed to be challenged. So it's not down to you to say that we shouldn't challenge him on it, as it posts the headphone in negative light that it doesn't quite deserve re ability to drive it, and it sets a worrying precedent for safe listening levels.

 

[oscar_dziki]

Everything is quieter with these headphones! What are you using to drive them? They are power hungry to the extreme—so much so that I think this was underemphasized in the review, to a misleading extent (it was mentioned, but in my view, not sufficiently in this case).

If the standards here are that we’re going to qualify a recommendation for one headphone or another with EQ but not without, then I think the same should hold true for amp requirements. These things have a sensitivity of around 85-86, which is ridiculously low—almost Susvara low. There are a very limited number of amps that could drive these $4,000 cans, and single-ended would be unthinkable.

This is just my view, but I think specs this low are just as much a design failure as noncompliant tuning—and PEQs are far more accessible to the average user than mammoth amplifiers. The Stealths are demanding enough, but these are built on the same technology and are considerably worse—what’s going on in this design that is drawing so much power, and what could have been done, if anything, to mitigate it?

I built my system ground up for these cans. I bought E30 II L 30 II, and I run it single-ended. That's 300$ of electronics that can drive them to ear bleeding levels. Like I wrote before - I barely ever go to high gain. 150$ amp I think is quite accessible, especially considering the price of these headphones.

 

[oscar_dziki]

I like quite a bit of bass. I recently acquired a set of HifiMan HE1000se’s that have a sensitivity of 96, and with the analog bass boost I have on my amp, I can literally feel the low end pleasingly rattling my chest.

Do you hear headphones bass in your chest? Wait, are you the Tom Thumb guy?

 

[oscar_dziki]

Thinking about getting the DCA Noire as my compact, closed back traveling phones, do you all think a Topping G5 has enough power?

Yes, it has more than enough. However, I would be much happier with cronicle zero + apple dongle in travel, or if you really have too much money some higher-end iems.

 

[Robbo99999]

Do you hear headphones bass in your chest? Wait, are you the Tom Thumb guy?

(so small he fits his whole body in the earcup??)

 

[DJBonoBobo]

With this whole topic of volume ("set volume control to 2 o'clock" etc.) there is always the question of what music you are listening to. When I tested the Expanse with the ADI 2 DAC, I had the volume at -30dB or less most of the time and found that to be "loud". However, this is because the music I normally listen to is often heavily compressed and has a low dynamic range (often around DR 7-9). Once when listening to a very quiet classical recording, I had to turn the volume up to -6dB for it to be "loud".

 

[solderdude]

Do you hear headphones bass in your chest?

He forgot he was wearing his SubPac

 

[srkbear]

I don't care too much whether he actually owns an Expanse or not, it was a possible reason for the large discrepancy in the numbers vs his reported experience, but you're right that it doesn't need pursuing which is kind of why I put it in brackets. Point is, the Expanse is not as hard to drive as the dude was making out, which is why I ran the numbers on it. (Plus it helps if he realises he's damaging his hearing)

I did buy the Expanse, based on the review I read here, similar to pretty much all of my gear I’ve purchased (why on earth would I lie about this?). I stated early on in this thread that I was in the market for a new headphone and intended to try these over the Stealths based on this review—did you not see that post?

And despite my admiration for the sound quality, I’m returning them for the reasons I stated. I’m also not injuring my hearing—I’m a healthcare professional and I know better.

For whatever reason, my 14 watt amp is not capable of driving these to a level that I find enjoyable—not with the ASP bass boost I enjoy for the genres of music I prefer. And @solderdude raised this power demand concern early on in this discussion—did you miss that too?

These are extremely insensitive cans, as Amir noted during his review. There are plenty of other planars at this price range (and less, such as the HE1000se, v2 and Edition XS) that have satisfying tuning right out of the box and are capable of being driven by portable amps—they simply haven’t been reviewed here yet.

I’m not sure why my point is being denigrated to this extent, or why it’s being considered off topic—what is wrong with criticizing a headphone for having a sensitivity of 86, any more than dinging them for requiring PEQ? Given the limited factors measurements can offer in evaluating headphones for a review, shouldn’t qualities such as usability in all applications be relevant?

Or am I just being attacked ad hominem, for not aligning with the groupthink about DCA’s eminence on this site? Do you have the Expanse available for your own assessment? I don’t get the pushback here at all, or the questioning of my sincerity. I’ve certainly been kind to the contributions of you and the others who are dismissing my input here. What is going on?

 

[Rthomas]

I did buy the Expanse, based on the review I read here, similar to pretty much all of my gear I’ve purchased (why on earth would I lie about this?). I stated early on in this thread that I was in the market for a new headphone and intended to try these over the Stealths based on this review—did you not see that post?

And despite my admiration for the sound quality, I’m returning them for the reasons I stated. I’m also not injuring my hearing—I’m a healthcare professional and I know better.

For whatever reason, my 14 watt amp is not capable of driving these to a level that I find enjoyable—not with the ASP bass boost I enjoy for the genres of music I prefer. And @solderdude raised this power demand concern early on in this discussion—did you miss that too?

These are extremely insensitive cans, as Amir noted during his review. There are plenty of other planars at this price range (and less, such as the HE1000se, v2 and Edition XS) that have satisfying tuning right out of the box and are capable of being driven by portable amps—they simply haven’t been reviewed here yet.

I’m not sure why my point is being denigrated to this extent, or why it’s being considered off topic—what is wrong with criticizing a headphone for having a sensitivity of 86, any more than dinging them for requiring PEQ? Given the limited factors measurements can offer in evaluating headphones for a review, shouldn’t qualities such as usability in all applications be relevant?

Or am I just being attacked ad hominem, for not aligning with the groupthink about DCA’s eminence on this site? Do you have the Expanse available for your own assessment? I don’t get the pushback here at all, or the questioning of my sincerity. I’ve certainly been kind to the contributions of you and the others who are dismissing my input here. What is going on?

Can you please name this 14 watt mystery amp please?

My guess is that just like my experience with the Stealth; the Expanse has bass that is not very impactful or satisfying at normal listening levels. It plays loud enough from my RME Adi 2 but the bass wasn’t impactful and powerful enough for my taste.
Maybe that’s part of the problem for you as well

 

[srkbear]

I was about to hit buy on the DCA Noire, when I read your post. Are the Expanse much worse than other DCAs? I’ve been spoiled with how eay it is to get great sound from the Utopia. My whole point in getting the Noire is to have a portable system with a Topping G5. Maybe I should focus on IEMs or the closed back Focal.

I think DCA makes terrific headphones, and I’ve never doubted Amir’s assessments when buying any of the gear I have. I had intended on trying the Stealths until I read this review, and I’m reconsidering trying them again, since they aren’t quite as power hungry as the Expanse. I don’t know what kind of amplifier setup you have or how you like to EQ your music, so I wouldn’t want my experience to dissuade you from trying them.

But in my case I should have known better. I should have heeded Amir’s warning that these are among the top three or four power hungry headphones he has reviewed to date—this is the second time this factor has had an impact on my ability to enjoy a headphone I’ve purchased and I made the same mistake twice. I returned the Susvaras for the very same reason—they have a sensitivity of 83, which is several points lower than the Expanse.

I have an iFi Pro iCAN Signature amp that has 14 watts of power at 16 ohms when balanced, and it has a built in analog bass boost. Either my choice of amplifier or my bass preferences are unsuitable for headphones with sensitivities this low, and apparently I need to choose my headphones accordingly. Your needs may be altogether different, so please take my experience with caution.

 

[Rthomas]

I think DCA makes terrific headphones, and I’ve never doubted Amir’s assessments when buying any of the gear I have. I had intended on trying the Stealths until I read this review, and I’m reconsidering trying them again, since they aren’t quite as power hungry as the Expanse. I don’t know what kind of amplifier setup you have or how you like to EQ your music, so I wouldn’t want my experience to dissuade you from trying them.

But in my case I should have known better. I should have heeded Amir’s warning that these are among the top three or four power hungry headphones he has reviewed to date—this is the second time this factor has had an impact on my ability to enjoy a headphone I’ve purchased and I made the same mistake twice. I returned the Susvaras for the very same reason—they have a sensitivity of 83, which is several points lower than the Expanse.

I have an iFi Pro iCAN Signature amp that has 14 watts of power at 16 ohms when balanced, and it has a built in analog bass boost. Either my choice of amplifier or my bass preferences are unsuitable for headphones with sensitivities this low, and apparently I need to choose my headphones accordingly. Your needs may be altogether different, so please take my experience with caution.

You are using an amp for which the Susvara and Expanse should be a piece of cake.

14 watts into 16 Ohms is ridiculous power, far beyond what either of these headphones can draw.

The problem is not the amp or the headphones, something doesn't add up here.

Do you have less exotic headphones lying around to give us a common reference?

For example I use my Bose QC35 and PSB M4U8 wireless headphones at around 50% volume on my iPhone 12.

What about you?