Dan Clark Expanse Headphone Review

[Garrincha]

The soundstage on the HD800 is artificial. It almost sounds like the fake surround sound you get with DSP but wider.

Most people don't seem to be bothered by the tuning or how the headphone portrays instruments, but most percussion instruments and even strings sound kinda hollow, like there are parts of the instruments missing which creates that ghostly/wide/less precise presentation. I would even go as far as to say that the DT990 and 1990 have better/sharper imaging and are almost as wide in their presentation. Just too harsh in the treble for most people.

Edit: Also, the fake wide soundstage makes all binaural recordings sound terrible. For a "TOTL" headphone it does make me wonder how it could be worse than IEMs at reproducing spatial cues in binaural recordings accurately.

If you find this artificial, than maybe you prefer no soundstage at all like many cheap headphones provide. I can see nothing artificial to it, it is much more like listenting to speakers or real music. An no hollowness as well. Maybe your EQ does not work properly?

 

[Garrincha]

It's a commonly held myth that our ears cannot detect sound below 20 Hz, when in fact it's only tonal/pitch perception that ceases around there. I'd suggest reading this review of the research on infrasound perception. Key quotes from that paper:









Maybe this last point is one of the reasons why Harman found listeners' preferred bass level to be higher in headphones than with speakers in their blind tests.

Yes, maybe sound below 20Hz can somehow be perceived, but as far as I know no recording material delivers it, so for sound reproduction this is not relevant.

 

[GaryH]

Yes, maybe sound below 20Hz can somehow be perceived, but as far as I know no recording material delivers it, so for sound reproduction this is not relevant.

Frequencies below 20hz present in musical recordings.

Tonight I tried to extract the tracks of some classical music CDs in my collection in wav. I realized that older recordings have a narrow frequency range. Some more recent have surprised me because the very low frequencies below 20hz are very strong. But how can you listen to them? Why insert...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And then there are of course movie soundtracks (and TV series).

 

[hifiearspeakers]

Good grief people, you all are not even remotely on topic. 3 pages and not even the use of the word Expanse once.

 

[solderdude]

Well the HD800 does have an EXPANSivE stereo image and is less EXPeNSivE than the EXPANSE.

 

[Garrincha]

Frequencies below 20hz present in musical recordings.

Tonight I tried to extract the tracks of some classical music CDs in my collection in wav. I realized that older recordings have a narrow frequency range. Some more recent have surprised me because the very low frequencies below 20hz are very strong. But how can you listen to them? Why insert...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And then there are of course movie soundtracks (and TV series).

From the thread it is very unclear what is real sound or digital artifact. In any case I prefer my headphones to sound good in the 20Hz - 20kHz domain and accept any bad behaviour outside this range with great pleasure.

 

[Dealux]

If you find this artificial, than maybe you prefer no soundstage at all like many cheap headphones provide. I can see nothing artificial to it, it is much more like listenting to speakers or real music. An no hollowness as well. Maybe your EQ does not work properly?

I'd take a slightly smaller stage with sharper/more vivid imaging any day.

 

[Mihalis]

How so?

The same speakers exhibit different imaging and space properties with different equipment prior to them. If there were measurements that one can point to then I would assess that based on how the equipment measures and not only what I hear.

 

[tifune]

The same speakers exhibit different imaging and space properties with different equipment prior to them. If there were measurements that one can point to then I would assess that based on how the equipment measures and not only what I hear.

When properly level matched, the odds are against that

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[okok]

If frequency response at the eardrum was all that mattered, then there would be no difference at the same amplitude

if FR is the same everything is the same
why bother

 

[Mihalis]

When properly level matched, the odds are against that

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yes I know that is the standard answer here. that the comparisons aren't level matched, that the listener isn't double blind etc etc. My surprise is noted because we just acknowledged here that one can't pinpoint where some of the sonic effects come from simply by measuring (or at least that is what the respondents seem to have admitted for headphones) so we should be a bit more humble about being so sure that level matching is the cure to all audiophilia. I noticed this earlier in another exchange where people where encouraging me to level match to 0.1-0.3db which is what they read somewhere. if anyone here can hear that kind of difference they sure have better ears than mine and the tons of people that have tried with me to listen to such level matching. Anyway just a man's view, I appreciate not popular here but I feel I have opened the door to explaining why that view is too extreme.

 

[Jimbob54]

My surprise is noted because we just acknowledged here that one can't pinpoint where some of the sonic effects come from simply by measuring (or at least that is what the respondents seem to have admitted for headphones) so we should be a bit more humble about being so sure that level matching is the cure to all audiophilia.

You confuddle 2 points.

The inability to predict exactly how a transducer will "sound" to any given listener in any given room (or ear for headphones) from measurements.

Is not the same as removing basic controls from listening tests when comparing components. Level matched and ears only first - then you can start seeing if a difference in 2 component chains ending with the same speakers/ headphones can make a difference.

 

[majingotan]

Good grief people, you all are not even remotely on topic. 3 pages and not even the use of the word Expanse once.

The name is not a moniker. Expanse is truly expansive sounding after having a 3rd chance of listening to it again more extensively. Saving funds to get these someday in the future. The middle one is my Aeon X Open of course.

 

[hifiearspeakers]

The name is not a moniker. Expanse is truly expansive sounding after having a 3rd chance of listening to it again more extensively. Saving funds to get these someday in the future. The middle one is my Aeon X Open of course.

View attachment 234657

Oh I know! I own them! I wish more people would actually comment on them, instead of arguing about generic attributes of everything else. I love them and think they are clearly the best creation by Dan Clark to date. I had been keeping up with this thread long before I decided to purchase them. But it has completely devolved lately to the point that I’m about to unfollow…

 

[Mihalis]

You confuddle 2 points.

The inability to predict exactly how a transducer will "sound" to any given listener in any given room (or ear for headphones) from measurements.

Is not the same as removing basic controls from listening tests when comparing components. Level matched and ears only first - then you can start seeing if a difference in 2 component chains ending with the same speakers/ headphones can make a difference.

I don't think I am. I am just saying that anytime anyone says they hear something different then the immediate reaction is to talk about level matching. its getting old. Secondly I am not talking about any given listener in any given room but in the same listeners in the same room with these parameters held constant and upstream components varying (specifically thinking of amps which obviously can have tons of effect.)

I initially wrote all this because I am trying to ascertain if there is correlation with measurements and imaging/width/depth. There must be because there are manufacturers who can manipulate that including the processor I mentioned which has stunning results in getting the sound from headphones come out of the head.

 

[Zenairis]

Well the HD800 does have an EXPANSivE stereo image and is less EXPeNSivE than the EXPANSE.

It also has more distortion and doesn't sound remotely as spatially accurate. I'd take a Susvara over a HD800 any day and I would take the Expanse or even the Stealth over the Susvara. I'll say this, I was passionate about my Sennheisers when I owned them until I tried Hifiman's Arya, then the Susvara and I would not go back unless there was no other option.

Now for the kicker the Stealth kills the Susvara in all but gentleness. The Stealth is more detailed and more spatially accurate than the Susvara and supposedly the Expanse is MORE so than the Stealth. I haven't heard the Expanse yet but I will be soon.

 

[Garrincha]

I'd take a slightly smaller stage with sharper/more vivid imaging any day.

I wonder if you say that the imaging of the HD 800 is not correct, what is your reference? Have you been in the studio of the original recording or how do you know what is the correct location?

 

[Garrincha]

It also has more distortion and doesn't sound remotely as spatially accurate. I'd take a Susvara over a HD800 any day and I would take the Expanse or even the Stealth over the Susvara. I'll say this, I was passionate about my Sennheisers when I owned them until I tried Hifiman's Arya, then the Susvara and I would not go back unless there was no other option.

Now for the kicker the Stealth kills the Susvara in all but gentleness. The Stealth is more detailed and more spatially accurate than the Susvara and supposedly the Expanse is MORE so than the Stealth. I haven't heard the Expanse yet but I will be soon.

"The Stealth is mor detailed"? This is all FR, just EQ and the detail will be the same. And what does "gentle" mean?

 

[Jimbob54]

I am just saying that anytime anyone says they hear something different then the immediate reaction is to talk about level matching. its getting old.

Because you would be amazed how many people either ignore it or do it half baked and still talk about the differences they perceived.

 

[majingotan]

Because you would be amazed how many people either ignore it or do it half baked and still talk about the differences they perceived.

He's at the stage where he hasn't reached the I've been there done that (perceived differences but after level matched and A/B single blind on some circumstances sighted is enough, the pixies vanished to thin air), but because of this phase of stage in this hobby, I've come to be more actually be open minded rather than closed: there are measured/objective explanations for anecdotal subjective phenomenon as how we hear things. ASR as a whole just revealed all that so that everyone can learn though it can't be helped that the information is scattered throughout the forum, and one must take all the information, stitch them together and have an objective case with the information laid out convincingly objective