Dan Clark Expanse Headphone Review

[Monstieur]

Here is a corroborating review (@12:50) for the bass on the Aeon 2. Can anyone confirm whether the Expanse has a similar sensation of sub-bass?

 

[Garrincha]

Here is a corroborating review (@12:50) for the bass on the Aeon 2. Can anyone confirm whether the Expanse has a similar sensation of sub-bass?

Macrodynamics, microdynamics, punch, slam, speed, etc. might very well not exist really and be just audiophile bling words, like PRaT.

 

[Monstieur]

Macrodynamics, microdynamics, punch, slam, etc. might very well not exist really and be just audiophile bling words, like PRaT.

A subwoofer calibrated to identical frequency response and loudness at the seating location as a pair of headphones clearly has more "slam". There's no reason to think that a bigger driver or different sized ear pads, with identical frequency response, can't do the same.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

I'm not so sure that the differences in headphones would be large enough to make a real difference. Unfortunately controlled testing would be difficult to achieve since pad differences could induce side-effects because of other factors.

From my own experience I have not perceived significant differences in "slam" aside from headphones with high bass distortion. I tend to agree with Dan Clark's conjecture about the correlation of distortion and bass perception, but there is not yet conclusive evidence for it. The creation of a reproducible and controllable setup has also proved challenging to me.

 

[Monstieur]

I'm not so sure that the differences in headphones would be large enough to make a real difference. Unfortunately controlled testing would be difficult to achieve since pad differences could induce side-effects because of other factors.

From my own experience I have not perceived significant differences in "slam" aside from headphones with high bass distortion. I tend to agree with Dan Clark's conjecture about the correlation of distortion and bass perception, but there is not yet conclusive evidence for it. The creation of a reproducible and controllable setup has also proved challenging to me.

He was talking about audible bass in that video, and that was the reason the hump in the bass was introduced at 100 Hz which is well above sub-bass. However the Aeon 2 Closed has > 1% distortion at 20 Hz at 90 dB, while the LCD series are well below 1%. Yet the LCD has more sub-bass to me, subjectively.

If I cranked the LCD up to dangerous levels, the pads would almost separate from my skin and slide around from the internal pressure. The Aeon could never do that. It could also very well be the amp reaching its limits as the Aeon are both low impedance and low sensitivity.

 

[DEALUX]

Seriously, clarity isn't precise? What is clarity except FR? Use EQ. And I can't see how imaging shouldn't be excellent as well. The soundsatge is not a quirk or a gimmick, but a quality that brings the listener closer to the loudspeaker or even live listening experience. How should that not be desirable? I personally find it a pitty and a shame that apparently no other headphone came up with something comparable yet. The HD 800 came out in 2009, there was a lot of time to research.

Many people (myself included) have complained that the HD800 has a very hollow to non-existent center image. As far as I can tell this is the direct result of its treble tuning. Not so much the peaks but the strange behavior at 9-10 KHz. On other headphones I hear more energy there and the presentation is more intimate and vivid with a solid center image whereas the HD800 sounds hollow. Also, even with EQ, the HD800 doesn't really portray any instrument accurately. Some information that I could hear in other headphones and IEMs is still missing hence the artificial treble timbre. Again, this is with EQ as well.

Are you serious? You are talking about a roll-off at 10Hz? Do you know how 10 Hz sound? No? Because you can't hear it. At 20Hz the EQ is spot on the Harman curve, so you are chasing imaginary things. I have also the planar Sundara, with EQ also good amount of bass, but nothing different from the HD800. I think you are propagating myths.

The fact that there's a roll off (technically higher than 10 Hz in stock form) suggests that the headphone doesn't seal on the head completely or the driver can't reproduce linear bass. Either way, it doesn't have as much bass punch as I have experienced even on IEMs despite the usage of EQ. EQ doesn't really add bass impact unless the seal is tight like it is on Audeze planars and some Hifimans.

 

[GaryH]

The fact that there's a roll off (technically higher than 10 Hz in stock form) suggests that the headphone doesn't seal on the head completely or the driver can't reproduce linear bass. Either way, it doesn't have as much bass punch as I have experienced even on IEMs despite the usage of EQ. EQ doesn't really add bass impact unless the seal is tight like it is on Audeze planars and some Hifimans.

Yep, it's highly likely perceived bass impact correlates with front volume seal, as Oratory has also said. We may not be able to hear below 20 Hz, but we can feel it (e.g. just think how it feels when there's a static air pressure change in an airplane).

 

[hifiearspeakers]

Listen people, the Expanse has excellent bass in both quality and quantity. It slams as hard as my Atrium and sometimes harder. It reminds me of the original Final d8000. There is no roll off in the sub bass, but it’s harder to hear if the mid bass is pumping, because it’s prominent there in that frequency band. Look at the FR. The Expanse sub bass isn’t even flat at 20HZ. It slopes up! It will rumble as long as it’s not masked by the mid/upper bass punch. The bass on these is one of its greatest strengths, only bested by the ultra low distortion and elimination of standing waves in the upper mids and treble!

 

[majingotan]

Yep, it's highly likely perceived bass impact correlates with front volume seal, as Oratory has also said. We may not be able to hear below 20 Hz, but we can feel it (e.g. just think how it feels when there's a static air pressure change in an airplane).

Correct. That’s how I’m able to perceive 15Hz test tones out of the Aeon X Open

 

[GaryH]

When I add a bass shelf to the Aeon 2 Closed, I can hear it but I can't feel it. The same shelf on my LCD-5 and LCD-XC vibrates the earpads and my skull.

That's because LCDs have a very high degree of front volume seal. As Oratory says:

Now let's look at something really interesting: Audeze's LCD-series. They have famously huge earpads that form an absolute airtight seal and are one of the reasons why the LCD-series has such a serious bass-punch - because they form an absolutely airtight front volume, which allows the driver to work in pressure-chamber conditions, where the sound pressure depends only on the excursion of the driver. This results in linear bass response down to theoretically 0 Hz. Yes, ZERO Hz. Now they are not completely airtight, but they are airtight enough for the bass to be linear to below 10 Hz.

 

[okok]

Is the headphone 4k$ because of the development, engineering, manufacturing and the fact that not a lot will be sold or...
Is the performance so good that it warrants a high price

if this thing charged the same amount as the hd800s it will sound very bad, SQ relates mainly to price

 

[Zenairis]

Regarding soundstage, any headphone that is compared to the HD800 will always be slightly less in size than it. If I would rank the headphones in my subjective opinion of soundstage I would rank the following in order of most to least:

1) HD800 (S)
2) Raal SR1a
3) Tied: Susvara, HEDDphone, Stealth, Expanse, ZMF Caldera, ZMF Atrium/Verite, AKG K701/702, Stax SR-X9000
4) Tied: Focal Utopia, AKG K712, T+A Solitaire P, Warwick Bravura, Warwick Aperio, Meze Elite, Meze Empyrean
5) Tied: Aeon X Open, Aeon Noires, Meze Lyric
6) Tied: Aeon 2 Open and Closed
7) HD6XX
8) Sony MDR 7506


I won't dispute that, but I would still put that as an OPINION like mine. In my experience, Expanse DOES NOT need 4 watts as I was able to power them with a mere Apple Dongle out of my US version iPhone 12 Pro at max volume and with about slightly louder than my normal listening volume or I would say 90-100 dB SPL roughly with slightly quiet tracks such as "Harridan" by Porcupine Tree.

A shame the V2 Arya wasn't in this list. Their sound stage is absurd and thus far the only headphone I've heard with large vertical sound stage.

I would say the Stealth is above the Susvara (I haven't heard the Expanse yet but I'm hoping.) My Stealth sounds far wider than my Susvara, however I would say the Gen 2 Arya still blows both of those away in terms of sound staging. (Still sad I sold the Arya V2 even though I like the Susvara's timbre a lot.)

 

[JanesJr1]

My Aeon Open X (has flatter sub-bass than Expanse and Aeon 2 Closed) slams like a truck without EQ. Can't imagine a 10 dB boost on the sub-bass which would definitely give me headaches lol

I'm really curious to those who find the Aeon, Stealth and Expanse "soft" subbass since I think of those comments as their reference for a flat bass is the Sony WH-1000XM4. I find the Expanse a shy north of the Harman Bass while Stealth is the exact Harman and Aeon X Open is 3 dB lower than Harman (my personal preference is this BTW)

I have both the Closed X and Noire. The Noire has a little EQ to level out the sub-bass down to 20Hz. I can't imagine anyone, anywhere needing more sub-bass than these headphones provide.

Even though I listen mostly to acoustic sources, I also have dozens of recordings, mostly electronica, with the deepest sub-bass, and these headphones transformed my perception of what is possible without distortion. Not that I want it most of the time, but they are capable of brain-liquifying sub-bass, at loud SPL's, without significant distortion. These headphones trained me to hear the harmonic distortion AS distortion in my dynamic-driver headphones, and I have trouble listening to my HD6XX's now as a result. (I don't agree with those who say that bass distortion is close to indistinguishable from the fundamental. I agree that we may have grown up accustomed to perceive distortion as part of the fundamental bass response; but when you listen to low-distortion bass you learn to tell the difference, and then it is pretty easy to hear.)

For acoustic sources, I agree with your preference for about a 3 dB cut to the Harman bass, in order to correctly integrate the bass with the rest of the FR. The bass can start to sound somehow disengaged from the higher-FR spectrum if I let it get much louder, and bass-for-its-own-sake isn't really compatible with a priority in favor of fidelity with acoustic sources. So pick your poison there. The low-distortion planars make the goal of 20-20k integration a lot more rewarding in practice, at least for me. That is the #1 thing I most appreciate about them. (For non-acoustic sources, of course, the FR-reins are a little looser...)

{That said, when EQing, I do keep the 60-160k Dan Clark bump to the upper bass on the Noire. The Stealth and Expanse also have that bump, and I find it pretty helpful.)

I haven't heard the Stealth or Expanse, but I guess I would expect at least similar performance, without the need for a little sub-bass EQ that the Noire needs.

 

[Keened]

{That said, when EQing, I do keep the 60-160k Dan Clark bump to the upper bass on the Noire. The Stealth and Expanse also have that bump, and I find it pretty helpful.)

I've made a few EQ targets that include the bump on non-DCA headphones/IEMs and I'm inclined to agree that it is subjectively superior. Is there a thread that includes a stickied list of target curves so we can have more people test this?

 

[Garrincha]

A subwoofer calibrated to identical frequency response and loudness at the seating location as a pair of headphones clearly has more "slam". There's no reason to think that a bigger driver or different sized ear pads, with identical frequency response, can't do the same.

So you are now comparing a subwoofer and a headphone? Seriously?? Nothing more to say.

 

[Monstieur]

So you are now comparing a subwoofer and a headphone? Seriously?? Nothing more to say.

If frequency response at the eardrum was all that mattered, then there would be no difference at the same amplitude. Clearly that's not the case. The waves from the subwoofer transfer energy to your entire body.

It's also clear that headphones with a similar sub-bass frequency response produce a huge difference in physical sensation. For whatever reason the low frequency energy is not transferred the same way.

 

[Garrincha]

Yep, it's highly likely perceived bass impact correlates with front volume seal, as Oratory has also said. We may not be able to hear below 20 Hz, but we can feel it (e.g. just think how it feels when there's a static air pressure change in an airplane).

You may feel below sounds below 20Hz physically, but in reality or from speakers, not from headphones.

 

[Garrincha]

If frequency response at the eardrum was all that mattered, then there would be no difference at the same amplitude. Clearly that's not the case. The waves from the subwoofer transfer energy to your entire body.

No, FR at the eardrum is not all that matters when you talk about feeling it, because you can't hear it below 20Hz.

It's also clear that headphones with a similar sub-bass frequency response produce a huge difference in physical sensation. For whatever reason the low frequency energy is not transferred the same way.

That is a claim and I would say a weird one. Funnily the $5k LCD-5 has out of the box the same "weak" bass as the HD800, a lot of money wasted in my eyes.

 

[Monstieur]

That is a claim and I would say a weird one. Funnily the $5k LCD-5 has out of the box the same "weak" bass as the HD800, a lot of money wasted in my eyes.

The LCD-5 does have weak bass out of the box. But when I add a +10 dB or more bass shelf it sounds and feels the part. I don't get the same increase in feel with the Aeon 2 with a bass shelf. I don't have the HD800, but I would never attempt to EQ the bass on any open-back dynamic driver as it would distort severely.

I would never recommend any headphone without EQ other than the DCA Stealth / Expanse / Noir. They are the only headphones in existence that sound good out of the box, with the exception of DSP corrected heapdhones.

 

[majingotan]

A shame the V2 Arya wasn't in this list. Their sound stage is absurd and thus far the only headphone I've heard with large vertical sound stage.

I would say the Stealth is above the Susvara (I haven't heard the Expanse yet but I'm hoping.) My Stealth sounds far wider than my Susvara, however I would say the Gen 2 Arya still blows both of those away in terms of sound staging. (Still sad I sold the Arya V2 even though I like the Susvara's timbre a lot.)

Had a chance to demo it during CanJam but didn't have enough time unfortunately. I haven't heard the Arya V2 at all due to my good satisfaction with just the Aeon X Open. Susvara timbre is very pleasing but definitely colored sounding compared to Expanse/Stealth/Aeons (not to knock off the Susvara 'cause I'm also perfectly satisfied with Susvara's sonics), just that Expanse IMHO has a more convincing imaging than Susvara to me subjectively thus eclipse it overall but I didn't feel that the sound is wider than Susvara, just roughly the same.