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Dan Clark Audio AEON RT Review (closed headphone)

Dan Clark

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@Dan Clark

I may have missed the info, but does the RT use single or double sided magnets?
Whichever, why?

Do you use both types, like HFM? If so, or not, why?

And could you comment on your thinking of the benefits and disadvantages of each, including resulting audio characteristics ? (Distortion, fr, sound stage etc)

We use single-ended motors only. So far all the motors we designed worked better that way. Double sided motors add a lot of weight and more structures that affect acoustics but on the pro side they add efficiency.

We have never tried a double design that decreased distortion, though maybe other drivers that is the case (it’s a popular belief motor symmetry improves linearity but not in our experience).
 

Dan Clark

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Hello @Dan Clark , I own the Drop model Aeon Open X, where does that headphone fit in, with the Aeon, Aeon RT and Aeon 2?? Not a huge closed back fan, but these have me really interested.
Also, I hope @amirm gets the open back of this model to measure.

The Drop headphone is very similar to the RT.

If there‘s interest we can send more units for review.

The AEON 2 Noire is closest to the Harman curve in our line, the open headphones all have more upper bass than the Harman curve, Amir’s reference for tone. But they are all pretty easy to EQ for anyone wanting that exact signature (it’s probably worth noting Olive says 25% of people want more bass than the curve and 25% want more treble). They will all share the low THD.
 

frogmeat69

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The Drop headphone is very similar to the RT.

If there‘s interest we can send more units for review.

The AEON 2 Noire is closest to the Harman curve in our line, the open headphones all have more upper bass than the Harman curve, Amir’s reference for tone. But they are all pretty easy to EQ for anyone wanting that exact signature (it’s probably worth noting Olive says 25% of people want more bass than the curve and 25% want more treble). They will all share the low THD.
Please do send more in, if @amirm has the time to do it, of course.
The Drop model is one of my favorite headphones, and knowing they are similar to the RT models makes my wallet happy, lol.
 

Ron Texas

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$500, great measurements, thank you @amirm . I sense there is a very high productivity in headphone measurements. No heavy boxes to move around and the measurement itself probably takes a lot less time than the Klippel. Lower shipping costs also are a big help.
 

Sal1950

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Finally some sanity in great sounding headphone pricing. The last two decades have seen costs go out of sight..
Thanks @Dan Clark
 

solderdude

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9038d (120mW@16 Ohm, 180mW@32 Ohm, 95mA current limit). I should get 106db spl peak from this dongle if i am not mistaken with the math. Which is pretty loud for me. And sure, my headphones are pretty loud (I am not even going to max volume). But sounds not as good as they can do with desktop amp. Maybe i've poorly described sound as just "bass roll-off", bass is here, just perceived as not deep enough, compressed, lacking dynamics and slam. If i didn't have an desktop dac for reference, I may haven't even noticed that. People usually talking like "if it is loud enough, it is ok". Seems like not always the case. May be not with this current hungry headphones.

The math is wrong. Current limit is 86mA so 1.12V in 13 Ohm = 96mW = 98dB SPL peak = around 80dB on average.
It is safe to say the dongle is not enough for the 9038D.

When the desktop is playing just as loud as the 9038D do both sound closely the same ?
 
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Would you say that with EQ, it is as good as the HD800S with EQ? Particularly in the areas of soundstage and layering.
 

Veri

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Would you say that with EQ, it is as good as the HD800S with EQ? Particularly in the areas of soundstage and layering.
Few things get close to the HD800S in terms of throwing a massive stereo image. A closed headphone like the Aeon RT closed can never imitate this.
 
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amirm

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Would you say that with EQ, it is as good as the HD800S with EQ? Particularly in the areas of soundstage and layering.
No. 800S sounds different and euphonic that way when it comes to layering and soundstage. This headphone won't produce that kind of sound. It is a more "normal" presentation with some amount of spatial quality so it doesn't sound boring. But it is not 800S.
 

Mimeyar

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Aeon open has more noise attenuation than is typical for an open headphone. It is more a semi-open headphone in terms of noise attenuation which is halfway between an open headphone and closed headphone. I wish it had less noise attenuation but I guess it is a result of the baffle plate with the waveguide holes.

The Aeon series is one of the best headphones ever made in terms of ergonomics. It's not heavy, doesn't touch the ears, seals well and doesn't have excessive clamping force. Most headphones have a problem in at least one of those areas. Though the downside of larger area inside the ear pad is that frequency response can vary more as there is a larger area where the ear could be positioned. Moving the headphone far forward so the ear is at the front can sound different to moving it towards the back.
 
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swarley

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I'm really new to all things audio and these seem like a great option for a 'low' cost headphones that measure exceptionally well. I'm using a Schiit Stack and not sure if the Heresy will be a good match with the Aeon. Would the Heresy be able to drive these well? My guess is that it probably would do well with these headphones too, but just not sure. I'm mostly confused on the factors of the low resistance + low efficiency, requiring higher voltage and current from the amp?... For a person who studied science (chemistry) in college..I'm really lost..xD (Electromagnetics/Circuits were always weak points for me =P)

Would appreciate any advice. Thanks in advance.
 
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amirm

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I'm using a Schiit Stack and not sure if the Heresy will be a good match with the Aeon. Would the Heresy be able to drive these well?
While I have not tested it with this headphone, it should do fine. It had no trouble driving the 25 ohm Ether CX headphone.
 

Frio

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Aeon open has more noise attenuation than is typical for an open headphone.
Ok thanks, maybe then it is time for me to experiment a little bit. Ordered the closer one, if it doesn't suit me the risk is minimal since there are no imports in Europe. Maybe snow I have something challenging my 887 monolith.
 

Francis Vaughan

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Something that has been in the back of my mind for some time, especially with respect to headphones (but also with speakers) is the idea of a design that simply avoid the various design tweaks needed to shape frequency response, and relies purely on active correction. So I wonder of @Dan Clark might be just the right person to ask. This strikes to the question of open backed versus closed.

Clearly open backed are advantaged by essentially radiating the back of the driver out into a near infinite void. With the energy never to return. A closed back design needs to manage stored energy in its multifarious forms. But both designs also have sculpted frequency responses designed to mimic the wearer's HRTF and manage interaction with the pinna. This means some interesting tweaks and frobbing with the mechanical and acoustic properties of the design in ways that might not be the best answer for best possible performance. One wonders if a closed back headphone that was designed with as perfect damping in the rear cup as possible could be made and its frequency response shaped with a bespoke set of equalisation parameters. Within the constraints of the size of the cup one might be able to achieve the best of both worlds. No stored energy issues, really good bass, really good isolation.
It seems that the market is not quite ready for such a product, but is very very close to the point where it might be. Most of the ducks are lined up. So maybe. Perhaps Dan could make an Æon DSP and test the waters. I would by one.
 

PeteL

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Something that has been in the back of my mind for some time, especially with respect to headphones (but also with speakers) is the idea of a design that simply avoid the various design tweaks needed to shape frequency response, and relies purely on active correction. So I wonder of @Dan Clark might be just the right person to ask. This strikes to the question of open backed versus closed.

Clearly open backed are advantaged by essentially radiating the back of the driver out into a near infinite void. With the energy never to return. A closed back design needs to manage stored energy in its multifarious forms. But both designs also have sculpted frequency responses designed to mimic the wearer's HRTF and manage interaction with the pinna. This means some interesting tweaks and frobbing with the mechanical and acoustic properties of the design in ways that might not be the best answer for best possible performance. One wonders if a closed back headphone that was designed with as perfect damping in the rear cup as possible could be made and its frequency response shaped with a bespoke set of equalisation parameters. Within the constraints of the size of the cup one might be able to achieve the best of both worlds. No stored energy issues, really good bass, really good isolation.
It seems that the market is not quite ready for such a product, but is very very close to the point where it might be. Most of the ducks are lined up. So maybe. Perhaps Dan could make an Æon DSP and test the waters. I would by one.
Yes but ain't all those Bluetooth headphones tries to do just that? The question here is where are those compromised, is it suboptimal damping, limitations of the amp, limitations of the CODECS, poor set of priority regarding signal processing or weak processing power, or all of these answers? They are not perfect, but why does it seam the market is not ready? they are the fastest growing segment in headphones by a huge margin.
 

Mimeyar

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Something that has been in the back of my mind for some time, especially with respect to headphones (but also with speakers) is the idea of a design that simply avoid the various design tweaks needed to shape frequency response, and relies purely on active correction. So I wonder of @Dan Clark might be just the right person to ask. This strikes to the question of open backed versus closed.

Clearly open backed are advantaged by essentially radiating the back of the driver out into a near infinite void. With the energy never to return. A closed back design needs to manage stored energy in its multifarious forms. But both designs also have sculpted frequency responses designed to mimic the wearer's HRTF and manage interaction with the pinna. This means some interesting tweaks and frobbing with the mechanical and acoustic properties of the design in ways that might not be the best answer for best possible performance. One wonders if a closed back headphone that was designed with as perfect damping in the rear cup as possible could be made and its frequency response shaped with a bespoke set of equalisation parameters. Within the constraints of the size of the cup one might be able to achieve the best of both worlds. No stored energy issues, really good bass, really good isolation.
It seems that the market is not quite ready for such a product, but is very very close to the point where it might be. Most of the ducks are lined up. So maybe. Perhaps Dan could make an Æon DSP and test the waters. I would by one.

The Audeze Sine in ear planar magnetics had an emphasis on linearity with EQ to the correct the frequency response. It's not realistic to sell a headphone that sounds terrible without EQ as a significant number of customers will not be using EQ and will review it poorly. You would have to sell an end to end solution which is similar to active monitors with a built in DAC. The Sine IEM had EQ DSP in the supplied Cypher cable. You also have to consider that some people are listening in pure analogue systems like vinyl. Audiophiles are also more adverse to DSP than acoustic compromise. It's not impossible but from a business perspective it's unlikely to sell in high numbers.
 

Francis Vaughan

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It's not realistic to sell a headphone that sounds terrible without EQ as a significant number of customers will not be using EQ
If it says on the tin "to be used with provided EQ" there is little that can be done to help the illiterate idiots that can't read or understand. Sure someone might buy a pair and complain, but there is only so much you can do. RTFM.

It's not impossible but from a business perspective it's unlikely to sell in high numbers.
No, probably not. But the Æon already has different tunings, which one assumes are already different variants. I'm proposing another such variant, hence the reference to an Æon DSP.

Yes but ain't all those Bluetooth headphones tries to do just that?
Given Bluetooth already comes with some compromises, I don't think they are shooting for the highest quality, rather they are shooting for cost. I'm talking about a mechanism to achieve the best possible performance, not how to optimise costs of production for cheap headphones. If what holds the Æon RT back from 800S levels of sonic performance is down to issues of stored energy managment in the rear cup, throw all efforts at fixing the stored energy, and go back and fix remaining response in EQ. Managing response by relying on tuned resonances and damping in the cup is a poor cousin to using DSP anyway. So bite the bullet, and see what might be possible.

Audiophiles are also more adverse to DSP than acoustic compromise.
That just gets us into the EQ of headphones debate we have already had. Sure, there are lots of misguided fools that will avoid EQ. There is little to be done for them. I would prefer that I am not denied progress simply because their is another market filled with fools. I'm hardly suggesting that manufactures cease pandering to them.
 

PeteL

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Given Bluetooth already comes with some compromises, I don't think they are shooting for the highest quality, rather they are shooting for cost. I'm talking about a mechanism to achieve the best possible performance, not how to optimise costs of production for cheap headphones. If what holds the Æon RT back from 800S levels of sonic performance is down to issues of stored energy managment in the rear cup, throw all efforts at fixing the stored energy, and go back and fix remaining response in EQ. Managing response by relying on tuned resonances and damping in the cup is a poor cousin to using DSP anyway. So bite the bullet, and see what might be possible.
I agree, but in the end it is business decisions, what my point was, there is no shortage of a market for DSP/EQed headphones, the question is is there a market for high end DSP Headphone. Now Flagship BT SOCS already comes with full parametric EQ, and also a lossless USB interface, then those manufacturers could easily offers wired options, put a higher end DAC and Amp at the output. They don't because they don't feel like the cost is worth the benefit for their customer base, but, for example, a Sony WH-1000 is 350 USD, it is not that cheap already. They sell tons. The question is not so much if the market is not willing to buy DSP Headphones, but how much would you be willing to pay for a DSP Aeon? Considering it should include a DAC, an amp, A digital receiver, DSP, AND be audiophile class, what is realistic? Is Double the price making sense? In all case, it's an interesting subject, but in the case on this specific, not that I'm dismissing your point in general, but you couldn't fit the necessary amplification for Dan Clark's Aeon in the cup, you need much more efficient transducers for this task, so probably not the right example?
 

Francis Vaughan

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Considering it should include a DAC, an amp, A digital receiver, DSP, AND be audiophile class, what is realistic?
Well right now we have been discussing the question of whether EQ is near mandatory for headphone listening. Every review has come with a recommended EQ setting and we discover entire existing databases of EQ settings. Some are recommended only with EQ. Anyone buying into that ecosystem will see the mooted Æon DSP as coming with zero additional cost over any other headphone. You just use the vendor provided EQ settings in exactly the same manner as you use settings for any other HP. The difference only being that the designer of the HP knows that they are freed from any requirement that the HP work without EQ. They don't need to craft in the HRTF, or indeed craft in other tweaks that can be reasonably better managed with EQ. Then they can start to add elements to the design that migh improve the overall quality that woud normally not be possible becuse they would affect the frequency response badly. It is all win.
I would argue that a regime where HPs are designed to work both with and without EQ is simply intrinsically compromised.
 
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