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Dan Clark Audio AEON RT Review (closed headphone)

Robbo99999

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Aha, maybe that can be a factor. I have a small head, so do not suffer from excessive clamping from any headphones I have tried.
My head is relatively large, if I remember once when I measured it, but not giant like though......the HE4XX was actually comfortable with the high clamping force because the pads are so soft, but for some reason that high overall pressure created some short lived tinnitus. I do remember researching it at the time, and high clamping force can cause that apparently.
 

RHO

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My head is relatively large, if I remember once when I measured it, but not giant like though......the HE4XX was actually comfortable with the high clamping force because the pads are so soft, but for some reason that high overall pressure created some short lived tinnitus. I do remember researching it at the time, and high clamping force can cause that apparently.
Yes, I can imagine that a high clamping force can create a sense of ringing in the ears. Certainly when you wear the headphones for several hours a day.
My head is so small I need to look at for models that can be adjusted to a small size, otherwise the headphones flop around on my head.
I had to swap the pads on my DT770 for Dekoni ones to make it stay on my head properly.
 

Robbo99999

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Yes, I can imagine that a high clamping force can create a sense of ringing in the ears. Certainly when you wear the headphones for several hours a day.
My head is so small I need to look at for models that can be adjusted to a small size, otherwise the headphones flop around on my head.
I had to swap the pads on my DT770 for Dekoni ones to make it stay on my head properly.
I've got an idea, you might really like this headphone then (JBL Tune 710BT):
It's got a good frequency response & not expensive, but pretty darn small earcups, but if you've got a small head then that might mean small ears too, and hence fitting this JBL Tune 710BT. Just a quick idea I had. (I don't know about clamping force on that headphone, but small earcups for sure).
 

RHO

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I've got an idea, you might really like this headphone then (JBL Tune 710BT):
It's got a good frequency response & not expensive, but pretty darn small earcups, but if you've got a small head then that might mean small ears too, and hence fitting this JBL Tune 710BT. Just a quick idea I had. (I don't know about clamping force on that headphone, but small earcups for sure).
Small head, but no small ears. :)
I've got no need for an extra pair of headphones. I'm very happy with the ones I have. (Aeon RT, HD6XX, Sundara, K371, Blessing 2 Dusk and DT770)
 

Robbo99999

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Small head, but no small ears. :)
I've got no need for an extra pair of headphones. I'm very happy with the ones I have. (Aeon RT, HD6XX, Sundara, K371, Blessing 2 Dusk and DT770)
Right you are! :)
California-Leaf-Nosed-Bat.jpg
 

JanesJr1

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Small head, but no small ears. :)
I've got no need for an extra pair of headphones. I'm very happy with the ones I have. (Aeon RT, HD6XX, Sundara, K371, Blessing 2 Dusk and DT770)
Robo9999, you have the Sundara and the Aeon RT. Can you characterize each, at least in a nutshell? I have a reason for asking ....
 

Jimbob54

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Robo9999, you have the Sundara and the Aeon RT. Can you characterize each, at least in a nutshell? I have a reason for asking ....
No, he has neither if those.
 

Robbo99999

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Robo9999, you have the Sundara and the Aeon RT. Can you characterize each, at least in a nutshell? I have a reason for asking ....
Oh man, I wish I had both, I always wish I had more headphones, but I don't (although I certainly have lots by most standards).........you probably just think I have some of these headphones because I've been quite active in the DCA & Hifiman threads.....I do have HE4XX as a Hifiman/Drop planar headphone, and I have various other headphones & 3 units (inexplicably?) of both K702 & HD560s, which you can see amoungst my other headphones in my sig at the end of the post, but I don't have Sundara or Aeon RT.

What's your angle on your question though, what are your thoughts?
 

JanesJr1

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Robbo99999

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Right, I mis-read the author. Sorry RHO and Robbo...
It's ok, you can buy me an Aeon RT & Sundara to make up for such a tragic mistake....it's only fair!

(but what's your angle on your question, see if you can get @RHO to answer)
 

JanesJr1

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Right, I mis-read the author. Sorry RHO and Robbo...
Well, since you, Robbo, RHO, staticV3 and JimBob are all here, I have a subjective impression about the Aeon Closed X / RT's that I am trying to focus into something tangible. I've read a number of times about the Sundara's or LCD's or Focals having more slam or punch. My own comparison is to HD6XX's and various IEM's.

At low to moderate volume, I kind of agree. The DCA phones can be more distant, the drum thwacks can be recessed or thinner-sounding, and so forth. (That said, I love the DCA's, and like the tight, ample, undistorted bass, as well as the effortless resolution.)

However, at a certain volume, more like what I would use if I were actively listening to a piece of music and wanted to hear everything, but not to the point of actually-excessive volume ... the DCA's then seem so dynamic and lively that I couldn't imagine them being more punchy without sounding unnatural. It's like they cross a line where they bloom. I can imagine this is always true to some degree with any headphones or speakers, but I'm wondering if the "ramp-up" to full-slam is higher and steeper on the DCA's. But I can't even decide if it is more a perceptual or a transducer issue.

The reason I keep coming back to it, however, is my 'bi-modal' experience of the DCA's, whereby sometimes they're kind of tame, and other times, they're powerful and dynamic. And I notice it far more with them than my other transducers. (Minor side-note: I have a biggish head and a good seal with the DCA's. When they cook, they really cook, with deep sub-bass and percussive force.)

Does this subjective impression hook into anyone's perception of driver behavior or perceptual acoustics (or is it acoustic perception?) You all have more experience with a variety of headphones; do you see a tangible characteristic at work?
 

Jimbob54

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Well, since you, Robbo, RHO, staticV3 and JimBob are all here, I have a subjective impression about the Aeon Closed X / RT's that I am trying to focus into something tangible. I've read a number of times about the Sundara's or LCD's or Focals having more slam or punch. My own comparison is to HD6XX's and various IEM's.

At low to moderate volume, I kind of agree. The DCA phones can be more distant, the drum thwacks can be recessed or thinner-sounding, and so forth. (That said, I love the DCA's, and like the tight, ample, undistorted bass, as well as the effortless resolution.)

However, at a certain volume, more like what I would use if I were actively listening to a piece of music and wanted to hear everything, but not to the point of actually-excessive volume ... the DCA's then seem so dynamic and lively that I couldn't imagine them being more punchy without sounding unnatural. It's like they cross a line where they bloom. I can imagine this is always true to some degree with any headphones or speakers, but I'm wondering if the "ramp-up" to full-slam is higher and steeper on the DCA's. But I can't even decide if it is more a perceptual or a transducer issue.

The reason I keep coming back to it, however, is my 'bi-modal' experience of the DCA's, whereby sometimes they're kind of tame, and other times, they're powerful and dynamic. And I notice it far more with them than my other transducers. (Minor side-note: I have a biggish head and a good seal with the DCA's. When they cook, they really cook, with deep sub-bass and percussive force.)

Does this subjective impression hook into anyone's perception of driver behavior or perceptual acoustics (or is it acoustic perception?) You all have more experience with a variety of headphones; do you see a tangible characteristic at work?
The lower distortion cans with the right eq win every time when you put the hammer down.
 

RHO

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JanesJr1

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The lower distortion cans with the right eq win every time when you put the hammer down.
I hope that, and only that, is what it is!
 

staticV3

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do you see a tangible characteristic at work?
What you're describing sounds awfully similar to what happens if one does not compensate for equal loudness contours.
E.g. flat and lifeless sound at low volumes, to almost unnaturally dynamic/lively at high volumes.

I'm not sure if that's all there is to it. I for one have not experienced major nonlinearities in headphones and IEMs yet.
 

JanesJr1

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What you're describing sounds awfully similar to what happens if one does not compensate for equal loudness contours.
E.g. flat and lifeless sound at low volumes, to almost unnaturally dynamic/lively at high volumes.

I'm not sure if that's all there is to it. I for one have not experienced major nonlinearities in headphones and IEMs yet.
You mean, the manufacturer didn't compensate? Or is this a user-EQ issue?
 

staticV3

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You mean, the manufacturer didn't compensate? Or is this a user-EQ issue?
User EQ. Transducers are inherently linear and equal loudness compensation isn't really a thing yet in the headphone/IEM space. It's well established in Bluetooth speakers. Maybe AVRs as well? Not sure
 

Robbo99999

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Well, since you, Robbo, RHO, staticV3 and JimBob are all here, I have a subjective impression about the Aeon Closed X / RT's that I am trying to focus into something tangible. I've read a number of times about the Sundara's or LCD's or Focals having more slam or punch. My own comparison is to HD6XX's and various IEM's.

At low to moderate volume, I kind of agree. The DCA phones can be more distant, the drum thwacks can be recessed or thinner-sounding, and so forth. (That said, I love the DCA's, and like the tight, ample, undistorted bass, as well as the effortless resolution.)

However, at a certain volume, more like what I would use if I were actively listening to a piece of music and wanted to hear everything, but not to the point of actually-excessive volume ... the DCA's then seem so dynamic and lively that I couldn't imagine them being more punchy without sounding unnatural. It's like they cross a line where they bloom. I can imagine this is always true to some degree with any headphones or speakers, but I'm wondering if the "ramp-up" to full-slam is higher and steeper on the DCA's. But I can't even decide if it is more a perceptual or a transducer issue.

The reason I keep coming back to it, however, is my 'bi-modal' experience of the DCA's, whereby sometimes they're kind of tame, and other times, they're powerful and dynamic. And I notice it far more with them than my other transducers. (Minor side-note: I have a biggish head and a good seal with the DCA's. When they cook, they really cook, with deep sub-bass and percussive force.)

Does this subjective impression hook into anyone's perception of driver behavior or perceptual acoustics (or is it acoustic perception?) You all have more experience with a variety of headphones; do you see a tangible characteristic at work?
Well most of the true experience of what you perceive is related to what frequency response you are receiving at your eardrum combined with any recent comparisons (psychological burn-in you have with other differently toned headphones or speakers) you've made recently. The first point about what frequency response you're receiving at your eardrum - closed back headphones can often be quite finicky about how much bass you get, determined by how good you have seated your headphone for that listening session - some are more sensitive than others - for instance I know that my NAD HP50 closed back is extremely sensitive to seating position when it comes to bass perception & I've validated that unreliability through measurements of that headphone on my miniDSP EARS - it's very variable in comparison to my other headphones in the bass, and I had to do quite a few failed measurements (which I threw out) to even get the following kind of inconsistent consistency from the HP50 (and compared against the easy to measure/ easy to wear "chuck it on" K702):
HP50:
NAD HP50 EARS right channel.jpg
K702:
K702 Unit 3 Black House pads Right Channel.jpg


So it's possible you're getting a different experience in the bass with each headphone seating - you'll have to experiment with that.

The other variable is that you can't always guarantee what your actual bass frequency response actually is even when you have a good seal if you haven't had your individual headphone unit measured - I've found that since I've had the miniDSP EARS and have done EQ's based on the measurements of my actual units that the bass is noticeably more reliable when listening - because I'm crafting the shape of the bass from 200Hz down to 20Hz with good precision for my unit of headphone.

The elements of "slam" and such like are all explained by the frequency response of the headphone, if you can control it or conversely play with EQ a little to enhance it then that is where you will end up at. In my experience you can get adequate slam from a headphone following the Harman Curve in the bass, as long as it is really following that curve based on your headphone's unit to unit variation & how it seals on your head. The easy option is to place a Low Shelf Filter of Q0.71 at 105Hz and increase that until you have enough bass which should hopefully introduce some "slam" back into it - however I think the shape of the bass from 200Hz down to 20Hz will dictate your slam, and it's harder to get a clear picture on what's really going on if you haven't measured your individual unit or if you suspect you have seal issues when wearing it. I don't wish to put doubt in your mind about "knowing" what your headphones are doing on your head, but headphones can be a real bitch to know what's going on with them, it's a bit of a rabbit hole, the more you know the more you realise the ways in which they can be innacurate!


EDIT: regardless of what I've said, it's true that any given headphone & EQ will sound it's best at a certain "arbitary" volume level, and I normally tweak the dial to get it sound the best for any given track as long as it's not too loud.

EDIT #2: what most users can do to minimise these problems is to choose headphones with historical low unit to unit variation combined with headphones that are known to seal well to most users (this way you can guarantee with greater certainty that any EQ's you find on the net are more relevant to your unit & yourself, they will be more accurate) - that's how you mitigate those problems and get the best experience if you're not in a position to measure your unit yourself.
 
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PeteL

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Well most of the true experience of what you perceive is related to what frequency response you are receiving at your eardrum combined with any recent comparisons (psychological burn-in you have with other differently toned headphones or speakers) you've made recently. The first point about what frequency response you're receiving at your eardrum - closed back headphones can often be quite finicky about how much bass you get, determined by how good you have seated your headphone for that listening session - some are more sensitive than others - for instance I know that my NAD HP50 closed back is extremely sensitive to seating position when it comes to bass perception & I've validated that unreliability through measurements of that headphone on my miniDSP EARS - it's very variable in comparison to my other headphones in the bass, and I had to do quite a few failed measurements (which I threw out) to even get the following kind of inconsistent consistency from pthe HP50 (and compared against the easy to measure/ easy to wear "chuck it on" K702):
HP50:
View attachment 200141
K702:
View attachment 200140


So it's possible you're getting a different experience in the bass with each headphone seating - you'll have to experiment with that.

The other variable is that you can't always guarantee what your actual bass frequency response actually is even when you have a good seal if you haven't had your individual headphone unit measured - I've found that since I've had the miniDSP EARS and have done EQ's based on the measurements of my actual units that the bass is noticeably more reliable when listening - because I'm crafting the shape of the bass from 200Hz down to 20Hz with good precision for my unit of headphone.

The elements of "slam" and such like are all explained by the frequency response of the headphone, if you can control it or conversely play with EQ a little to enhance it then that is where you will end up at. In my experience you can get adequate slam from a headphone following the Harman Curve in the bass, as long as it is really following that curve based on your headphone's unit to unit variation & how it seals on your head. The easy option is to place a Low Shelf Filter of Q0.71 at 105Hz and increase that until you have enough bass which should hopefully introduce some "slam" back into it - however I think the shape of the bass from 200Hz down to 20Hz will dictate your slam, and it's harder to get a clear picture on what's really going on if you haven't measured your individual unit or if you suspect you have seal issues when wearing it. I don't wish to put doubt in your mind about "knowing" what your headphones are doing on your head, but headphones can be a real bitch to know what's going on with them, it's a bit of a rabbit hole, the more you know the more you realise the ways in which they can be innacurate!


EDIT: regardless of what I've said, it's true that any given headphone & EQ will sound it's best at a certain "arbitary" volume level, and I normally tweak the dial to get it sound the best for any given track as long as it's not too loud.

EDIT #2: what most users can do to minimise these problems is to choose headphones with historical low unit to unit variation combined with headphones that are known to seal well to most users (this way you can guarantee with greater certainty that any EQ's you find on the net are more relevant to your unit & yourself, they will be more accurate) - that's how you mitigate those problems and get the best experience if you're not in a position to measure your unit yourself.
I am not so sure I fully understand your analysis, although what you say is true, but the OP was talking on the relation with perceived Slam vs listening level, and if I am getting right you seem to talk about seal? Me I think it's simply a very inefficient headphone, with a very low impedance, It doesn't appear unrealistic that this driver can struggle a bit to reproduce the bass at low voltage, depending what amp is used to drive them if it's current limited. Add to that the general theory of Fletcher Munson curves, that are true for all headphones but this add to the effect of perceived anemic bass at low level it's just already a fact that you won't get the perception of Big Bass at low level, but this may even be enhanced by unneficients drivers, It may just need more to get to their fully linear dynamic behaviour. @JanesJr1 What amp are you using?
 
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