Dali speakers

[doorofnight]

DALI Epicon 6 THD. Any comments?

 

[MarcT]

DALI Epicon 6 THD. Any comments?

Maybe I can't read the graph, but at what volume level is this? 60 Hz gets up to almost 2%, right? Is that good performance at 60 Hz?

 

[doorofnight]

I do not know. Here's the URL for a better image.

Alpha-Audio - DALI Epicon 6 – THD 1 watt – 1 meter

DALI Epicon 6 – THD

www.alpha-audio.nl

 

[steve59]

for a woofer at 60hz I expect the experts will tell us 2% distortion is inaudible

 

[doorofnight]

I guess, but if a woofer distorts 2% at 60Hz, what does that say for example 500 Hz? And Is there some way to predict distortion based on this measurement for certain volumes?

 

[MarcT]

I guess, but if a woofer distorts 2% at 60Hz, what does that say for example 500 Hz? And Is there some way to predict distortion based on this measurement for certain volumes?

Somebody correct me if wrong, but I think woofer distortion is more prone to occur around 60 Hz than at 500 Hz. It would be nice to know at what volume level this distortion occurred.

 

[unicore]

Do you maybe know if I can use for example KEF S3 Floor Stands for Dali Epicon 2 spealers or maybe some other alternative like Dynaudio stands?
Or maybe because of the shape of the speakers the best solution is to use Dali stands for epicons?

 

[steve59]

I guess, but if a woofer distorts 2% at 60Hz, what does that say for example 500 Hz? And Is there some way to predict distortion based on this measurement for certain volumes?

many 3 way speakers roll the woofer off below 400 hz to avoid IM distortion, don't ask me as its just something I read.

 

[HeadDoc12]

DALI now offers the option to upgrade their Equi wireless lines to full 7.1 surround. If there is another company out there doing this (or even 5.1) with comparable or better sound, please let me know! For now, the Rubicon 6C is my dream speaker, as it can go from 2.0, to adding a sub, a center, and surrounds, in any order, as budget allows. I choose it over the 8C because in exchange for slightly lower SPL and FR, I get better (?) tweeter height and easier placement as it is not as tall or deep (and less expense!); would use a sub with either setup anyway.

 

[Macfox]

Well, I've taken a look into it. But isn't 63Hz a bit too low for measuring distortion? I am not sure what this "implies" for higher fequencies and volume levels? Also, isn't THD more interesting? But not as important as a freq. response & waterfall?

It's usually the lowest frequencies that have the highest distortion. This Dutch review has full bandwidth distortion measurements. Use Google translate if you don't speak Dutch (like 99.9% of the world). The measured maximum distortions are 5 to 10 dB lower than the other tested speakers:

• ATC SCM11
• Bowers & Wilkins 705 S2
• Dynaudio Excite X18
• Monitor Audio Gold 100

 

[ASR fan]

DALI now offers the option to upgrade their Equi wireless lines to full 7.1 surround. If there is another company out there doing this (or even 5.1) with comparable or better sound, please let me know! For now, the Rubicon 6C is my dream speaker, as it can go from 2.0, to adding a sub, a center, and surrounds, in any order, as budget allows. I choose it over the 8C because in exchange for slightly lower SPL and FR, I get better (?) tweeter height and easier placement as it is not as tall or deep (and less expense!); would use a sub with either setup anyway.

I doubt there are many systems out there offering lower distortion within that category. I had the 6C for a little over a year and ran them with the Dali E-12F aluminum subwoofer for a few days. Beaware that when you connect a sub to the Equi hub, they reduce the output below 70Hz for the main speakers. In my experience the E-12F could not keep up with the 6Cs. Something about having a single sub vs four units / bass ports handling those frequencies. The latter just loads the room better in my experience. I don't have any data to support this, but I would imagine the 6Cs produce less distortion below 70hz than a single E-12F, and that you would need a pretty decent subwoofer system to keep up with the 6Cs. They are surprisingly capable at normal listening levels.

If I were you I would save on the sub(s), center and rears and just get a set of 8Cs. I agree with you on that the tweeter height is on the high side, and I wish it had one of the woofers above the tweeter module, but it is what it is. I still like this design more than say the Epicon 8 unit configuration.

The 6Cs alone are also fine if you rarely turn the volume past eleven.

 

[HeadDoc12]

I doubt there are many systems out there offering lower distortion within that category. I had the 6C for a little over a year and ran them with the Dali E-12F aluminum subwoofer for a few days. Beaware that when you connect a sub to the Equi hub, they reduce the output below 70Hz for the main speakers. In my experience the E-12F could not keep up with the 6Cs. Something about having a single sub vs four units / bass ports handling those frequencies. The latter just loads the room better in my experience. I don't have any data to support this, but I would imagine the 6Cs produce less distortion below 70hz than a single E-12F, and that you would need a pretty decent subwoofer system to keep up with the 6Cs. They are surprisingly capable at normal listening levels.

If I were you I would save on the sub(s), center and rears and just get a set of 8Cs. I agree with you on that the tweeter height is on the high side, and I wish it had one of the woofers above the tweeter module, but it is what it is. I still like this design more than say the Epicon 8 unit configuration.

The 6Cs alone are also fine if you rarely turn the volume past eleven.

Thanks SO MUCH for this info. There is really no substitute for the experience of someone who has had gear in their home for regular use. If you don't mind, I have some questions. Why did you get rid of the 6Cs? (I hope it was to replace them with the 8Cs and ditch the subs?). I have 2 set-ups in my home. Currently the good one is a pair of LS50WIIs with 2 KC62 subs. That room cannot handle any kind of surround set-up, so it is basically done. The other room is much bigger, with a larger TV, currently outputting to a Bluesound soundbar. THAT is where I hope to slowly build my DALI system, starting with the 6Cs. I will be curious if I agree about your assessment of the addition of a sub, as the room has very high ceilings. Have you heard the KEF system? How would you compare DALI's sound to KEF's? Any reply would be greatly appreciated.

 

[ASR fan]

Why did you get rid of the 6Cs? Have you heard the KEF system? How would you compare DALI's sound to KEF's? Any reply would be greatly appreciated.

More than happy to share my experience! Please ask away.

I put the 6C system up for sale in anticipation of having to move to another country later this year. I set the price to 70% of what I paid, thinking I was being overly optimistic, and was surprised how quickly they got picked up.
I have not heard the KEF system, so I cannot compare the 6Cs to the LS50WIIs.

I would like to clarify that I sold the E-12F subwoofer within one month of getting the 6Cs. I liked the sound much better without. I would say you need a much more serious subwoofer setup than a single E-12F to unload the 6Cs below 70Hz without compromising.

On another note, the 6Cs are perhaps less practical in their tuning than most speakers. They have a good amount of bass, so we shouldn't place them too close to any walls. I think they are tuned to strive in a serious hifi position. So set your expectations and commitments as if you were buying a highend speaker.

Finally I would comment that high ceilings are always good, but the 6Cs are not particulary sensitive to ceilings. I think the tweeter module limits dispersion vertically. Horizontally they are very neutral, and you can place them far a part without toe in. A flat triangle is no problem if you want to try that huge sound stage.

 

[oslius]

I tried to side grade / upgrade away from the Rubicons (tried KEF R series, Dyn Excite, Dyn Special 40, ATC) but I kept coming back to Dali. The only speaker I have on my list now are the Epicons which will surely never happen as I can't afford it The KEF R series are excellent in their own right, its more focused, weightier, neutral and dispersion seems more even across the room. But it doesn't have the soulful sound of the Dali that I always crave. Might just be me and my subjective tastes.

is rubicon 2 able to create a holographic/3d soundstage that fills the whole room? midrange/vocals are more up front or laid back? (asking because I don t like the speakers where the sound comes from behind them: ex Kef r3)

 

[unicore]

Hi, I'm using Benchmark AHB2 amplifier and Dali Epicon 2 as main audio system.

On the amplifier side the wires are connected as on the picture:

The left side binding posts colors on the amplifier (black, red), are not the same as on the left speaker binding posts (red, black):

Since Dali in the speaker manual says that the recommended way to connect the speaker is to respect wire and binding posts colors. I think even if colors on the left side speaker binding post are opposite to the wire color (binding posts red, black and wire black, red), I think everything is in order, since I have respected the color scheme on the amplifier.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[digitalfrost]

If you do it like this on both speakers, it will be fine. Maybe the absolute phase is inverted but that is impossible to say without looking at crossover topology or measurements. If you can measure, you can see the phase the speakers have. As long as you do it identical on both sides, there is nothing to worry about.

 

[Macfox]

Hi, I'm using Benchmark AHB2 amplifier and Dali Epicon 2 as the main audio system.

On the amplifier side the wires are connected as on the picture:
View attachment 311844

The left side binding posts colors on the amplifier (black, red), are not the same as on the left speaker binding posts (red, black):
View attachment 311845


Since Dali in the speaker manual says that the recommended way to connect the speaker is to respect wire and binding posts colors. I think even if colors on the left side speaker binding post are opposite to the wire color (binding posts red, black and wire black, red), I think everything is in order, since I have respected the color scheme on the amplifier.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Like said by someone else, it doesn't matter much as long as the left and right connections are done the same way.
However, if you want do to it technically correct, it's best to look at which terminal is the positive one (marked "+") and which one is the negative one (marked "-"). Connect positive to positive and negative to negative. Since red (positive) and black (negative) are usually coded the same way for all devices, this means connecting red to red and black to black, regardless of which one is left or right on each device.

 

[unicore]

If you do it like this on both speakers, it will be fine. Maybe the absolute phase is inverted but that is impossible to say without looking at crossover topology or measurements. If you can measure, you can see the phase the speakers have. As long as you do it identical on both sides, there is nothing to worry about.

Thank you on the reply.
On the right side, colors on the amplifier binding posts are red, black, and this is matched with the right side speaker binding posts, which are also red, black. So Dali has color scheme red, black on both sides and the amplifier has left side black, red and the right side red, black.

I will also check what @Macfox has mentioned.

 

[Macfox]

Thank you on the reply.
On the right side, colors on the amplifier binding posts are red, black, and this is matched with the right side speaker binding posts, which are also red, black. So Dali has color scheme red, black on both sides and the amplifier has left side black, red and the right side red, black.

I will also check what @Macfox has mentioned.

Going by pictures of the back of the amplifier, they indeed have the red/positive connections on the inside and black/negative on the outside. This seems a bit unusual, but doesn't matter much (it's most likely for esthetic reasons, to achieve symmetry). Connect left speaker positive (red)out to left speaker positive speaker connection (red), etc., and everything will be correct. Ignore whether black and right are on the same side on the amplifier and speaker. It's the positive/negative that matters.

 

[digitalfrost]

Like said by someone else, it doesn't matter much as long as the left and right connections are done the same way.
However, if you want do to it technically correct, it's best to look at which terminal is the positive one (marked "+") and which one is the negative one (marked "-"). Connect positive to positive and negative to negative. Since red (positive) and black (negative) are usually coded the same way for all devices, this means connecting red to red and black to black, regardless of which one is left or right on each device.

A lot of two-way speakers invert absolute phase anyway because of the crossover so you never know. You might connect it correctly color coded, but if you run an impulse through it and look at the graph it goes negative first.

To quote someone what puts it better than I ever could:

Phase Reversal in 2nd Order Crossovers

I've come across several sources that indicate that there is a phase reversal with 2nd order (12db) crossovers. I've seen several 2-way designs that recommend wiring the woofer backwards (connect positive of amp to negative of woofer). And in 3-way designs, that the midrange be wired...

www.diyaudio.com

A first order low-pass introduces 0-90 (45 at F3) degrees of phase lag, high-pass 90-0 degrees of phase lead (45 at F3, it's repeating waveform so there's no time travel involved), and the combination has the outputs 90 degrees out of phase at all frequencies. Together the two sum flat.

If you cascade two together for a LR2 filter you get 0-180 degrees of phase lag (90 at F6) from the low-pass, 180-0 of phase lead from the high-pass (90 at F6), and the outputs are 180 degrees out of phase at all frequencies. Together the two cancel for no output (assuming you're equidistant from both driver's acoustic centers along direct and all reflected paths). Invert one and they sum flat.

Inverting the woofer for a two-way or midrange for a three-way leaves high-frequency transients with the correct acoustic polarityand yields a flat sum.

But a lot of companies invert the tweeter instead and then absolute phase is "wrong". So you can't really give a general recommendation without looking at the specific speaker.