Dali speakers

[MarcT]

The Guru Q10 vs Dali Rubicon 6 is difficult to judge, the bigger speakers sound claustrophobic in that space, almost boomy which overwhelms the sound signature. I like the highs in the Guru pair but mid vocals seem recessed and the bass is not so convincingly textured.

Here is a comparison between 2 similar sized stand mounted speakers that seems better contrived...

And another with a wider selection to compare...

In both of the above, the Dali Rubicon 2's really stand out from the crowd. I wouldn't say they are more "transparent" (also difficult to judge from listening samples) but for listening enjoyment with a slight warmth and less fatiguing character...

Yes, in that second video, I'd say that for chilling and tapping your foot to the music, the Rubicon seems the best. It just seems fun to listen to. I also liked the KEF. The B&W seem to hot on the highs, such as cymbals. The Dynaudios seem to go to the other extreme, with the cymbals being too soft. The only model I thought was kind of poor sounding was the Sonus Fabers, as they didn't seem to have much clarity or dynamics.

BTW, that Sound Sommelier guy has some of the best audio quality video demos on youtube.

 

[Tokyo_John]

The thing is that those Dalis aren't even comparable to the R3, as one is 3-way and coaxial while the other is a waveguide-less and 2-way, two inconvenients that compound each other. One is style + value, the other is just style.
And I say that as someone whose first speakers where Zensor 1, which I didn't dislike.

Nigiri sushi is 2-way...fish and rice. If each is executed well, and in harmony with one another, I’m very happy. I’m not easily impressed by gimmicks and bells and whistles (e.g., monster sushi rolls). I don’t really care how a speaker gets the job done (this is often the domain of marketing nonsense), the end result is what I’m after. If a company can make a simple 2-way that sounds better to my ears than a more complex 3-way design...that is impressive.

I will try to visit a shop today and compare these directly.

 

[q3cpma]

Nigiri sushi is 2-way...fish and rice.

Speakers aren't sushi...

If each is executed well, and in harmony with one another, I’m very happy. I’m not easily impressed by gimmicks and bells and whistles (e.g., monster sushi rolls). I don’t really care how a speaker gets the job done (this is often the domain of marketing nonsense), the end result is what I’m after. If a company can make a simple 2-way that sounds better to my ears than a more complex 3-way design...that is impressive.

3-way aren't a gimmick in any way. You might have read too much audiophile fantasia; and if you want those Dali even if they're form over substance, no problem, just be aware of the fact.

To expand a bit, 3-way is always better than 2-way when both are executed with a minimum of competence and budget, as directivity is improved and IMD (which is often associated with listening fatigue when too high) much reduced. Actually, it's more accurate to say that 2-way speakers are a compromise that wouldn't even exist in the perfect world.
And without a subwoofer the comparison is even more biaised in favour of 3-ways.

 

[restorer-john]

BTW, that Sound Sommelier guy has some of the best audio quality video demos on youtube.

The speakers at 8:34 are out of phase.

 

[Tokyo_John]

Speakers aren't sushi...

There is more similarity in this analogy than you may realize.

3-way aren't a gimmick in any way. You might have read too much audiophile fantasia; and if you want those Dali even if they're form over substance, no problem, just be aware of the fact.

To expand a bit, 3-way is always better than 2-way when both are executed with a minimum of competence and budget, as directivity is improved and IMD (which is often associated with listening fatigue when too high) much reduced. Actually, it's more accurate to say that 2-way speakers are a compromise that wouldn't even exist in the perfect world.
And without a subwoofer the comparison is even more biaised in favour of 3-ways.

Sure, and a 6-way is better than a 3-way. And an 8-way is better than a 6-way.

To be clear, I'm in the market for a small bookshelf speaker in a small apartment with very little space and 2 raucous kids romping around the room (whose toys I often find on top of, and around, the speakers). I'm not able to put together any kind of ideal audiophile system. I'm specifically looking for a solid 2-way speaker, that's my default. A 3-way wasn't even on my radar. I will not be able to use floor stands, these will actually sit on a shelf (though I might be able to hang them from above or make a stand that sits on the shelf). I'm also very concerned about the frequency response of these speakers at ~1 Hz (i.e., earthquakes). It is difficult to explain to other people what it is like to live in a tiny apartment in a crowded place like Tokyo that shakes occasionally, but there are realities for us that seriously constrain what we're able to do...I'm perfectly OK with that, it is the trade-off for living in this city and I find that to be worth it.

The Dali Rubicon 2 are 350 x 195 x 335 mm and 8 kg, which is already pushing my reasonable levels of space and weight. The KEF R3 dimensions are 422 x 200 x 336 mm and 13.5 kg...taller by a bit, but significantly heavier and more difficult to anchor against potentially violent ground shaking. And I'm not even sure they would perform well on a shelf (many reviews say they must be placed on a proper stand).

 

[MarcT]

The speakers at 8:34 are out of phase.

Those would be the Sonus Faber. Maybe that would explain why they don't sound so good. He still has very good youtube demos, imo, after listening to a lot of demos from him and other people. Not sure as to the implication of your comment.

 

[Tokyo_John]

So I just auditioned the Dali Rubicon and KEF R3, same amp and source, at Yodobashi. The Rubicon’s are very nice and rich sounding, I can understand what reviewers mean when they call them “musical” and “engaging.” The KEF R3 is indeed impressive, it is like a LS50 with an additional bass driver. The amp driving them (a Denon integrated with Max 80WPC) wasn’t powerful enough to make either pair stand up properly, but I could hear the extra bass extension of the KEF and the vocals sounded like the breath exhaling from the singer’s voice was coming out of the tweeter itself.

I can say now, without a doubt, if the KEF R3 were cheaper than the Dali Rubicon 2, I would buy them instantly. But the 30% higher price tag and their physical beef/heft gives me pause. Ah, buying speakers is quite a chore!

They had the active Dali Rubicon 2 as well, which had a better amp (should be) and they had a lot more substance relative to the passive driven by the Denon. It sounds great! But not as technically flat and transparent as the KEF.

I also went to another shop where the typical component price was in the 5 figure (USD) range. Some incredible gear, but only in my dreams...

 

[Tokyo_John]

Looking at some international buying options for KEF R3, and came across this...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/KEF-R3-BLA...Vie-Bass-Reflex-Uni-Q-GAR-ITALIA/284092595732

It seems too good to be true...100% positive rating, with 1100 ratings in the past 12 months? Also, I've found some people encountering problems with their KEFs that required warranty coverage, including leaks of "ferro fluid" out of the tweeter...not sure that KEF would cover warranty in this case, since they're selling them directly in Japan (from their website) for JPY308,000 (about 800 euros more).

But still, risks aside, it brings the cost of the R3 down to the same level as the Rubicon 2...provided they do actually ship to Japan (they only say "Asia" but that isn't a country).

 

[restorer-john]

Also, I've found some people encountering problems with their KEFs that required warranty coverage, including leaks of "ferro fluid" out of the tweeter...not sure that KEF would cover warranty in this case, since they're selling them directly in Japan

KEF should honour the warranty, regardless of where in the world their products are purchased.

 

[Tokyo_John]

KEF should honour the warranty, regardless of where in the world their products are purchased.

Yes, but...

3. KEF Limited Warranty Coverage

This warranty is only valid in the country of purchase and only applies to the first purchaser of the KEF product(s) from an Authorised Dealer. This warranty does not extend to any other person or transferee, and terminates if you sell or otherwise transfer the KEF product(s) to another party/entity.

...and...

5. Conditions

Purchase KEF products (including passive loudspeakers, active loudspeakers, powered subwoofers, motorised speakers, electronics and headphones ["KEF products"]) only from dealers ("Authorised Dealer/s") and distributors authorised by KEF in their respective jurisdiction to sell genuine KEF products. Do not entrust repair work to unauthorised persons. The components necessary to maintain the original performance of the KEF products are available only through Authorised Distributors. Warranty is provided only to KEF products purchased from an Authorised Dealer and accompanied by proof of purchase. No warranty is provided to any product and/or any components not purchased from an Authorised Dealer/Distributor. Keep and produce receipt or proof of purchase in the event that service of your product is required. Information such as the date of the original purchase, the name and model number of the product, and the details of the Authorised Dealer must be clearly stated on the relevant receipt or proof of purchase.

URL: https://international.kef.com/pages/warranty

So the question would be: is this ebay seller an "Authorised Dealer" of KEF? Even if they are, I would still need to ship the speaker back to Italy for any needed repair work, and it would be handled by that dealer.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Menuet (only a single speaker in this line

Two, actually: the regular Menuet:

(1100€)

...And the Menuet Special Edition (1400€). Dali claims it has better woofer, crossover and internal wiring. As well as exclusive finish.

* Buchardt A500 - a nice modern Hi-Fi active that may do well if you don't listen loud.

Is 95dB from the LP loud enough? Because that is what I do every weekend with my A500s. Sub-100Hz distortion is really not a big (audible) deal at this SPL.

 

[Tokyo_John]

Two, actually: the regular Menuet:View attachment 122295(1100€)

...And the Menuet Special Edition (1400€). Dali claims it has better woofer, crossover and internal wiring. As well as exclusive finish. View attachment 122296


Is 95dB from the LP loud enough? Because that is what I do every weekend with my A500s. Sub-100Hz distortion is really not a big (audible) deal at this SPL.

I actually listened to both of these yesterday, and I could not hear any difference. That is what I had already heard from others. Still, the SE surely do have a beautiful cabinet! The SE woofer cones have a kind of shiny lacquer coating that the regular ones do not.

Actually, the active Dali Rubicon 2C powered speakers also had the shiny lacquer coating on them, as well, while the regular passive Rubicon 2 do not have the coating. Dali makes some claims about the 2C being "improved" in similar ways to the claimed SE improvements. The Rubicon 2C sounded better yesterday, but I think it had more to do with the amp.

Speaking of which...one other interesting tidbit I learned is that at least some of Dali's active speakers (Callisto, Rubicon) are claimed to be powered by a special 250W Class D amplifier whose description sounds a lot like hypex. And, as far as I can recall, the original purpose of hypex was to design better Class D amps for active speakers. So it could be that Dali are one of their big customers. This could be verified by opening up one of their actives and taking a look inside.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Speaking of which...one other interesting tidbit I learned is that at least some of Dali's active speakers (Callisto, Rubicon) are claimed to be powered by a special 250W Class D amplifier whose description sounds a lot like hypex. And, as far as I can recall, the original purpose of hypex was to design better Class D amps for active speakers. So it could be that Dali are one of their big customers. This could be verified by opening up one of their actives and taking a look inside.

There is a teardrown here. The amps and PSU seems to be their own:

 

[Tokyo_John]

Japan has a price checking website (kakaku.com) that shows the following lowest prices on KEF R series...
KEF R3: ¥308,000
KEF R5: ¥188,100
KEF R7: ¥211,200
KEF R11: ¥291,600

Really? R11 cheaper than R3? This is pretty nuts.

 

[thewas]

Japan has a price checking website (kakaku.com) that shows the following lowest prices on KEF R series...
KEF R3: ¥308,000
KEF R5: ¥188,100
KEF R7: ¥211,200
KEF R11: ¥291,600

Really? R11 cheaper than R3? This is pretty nuts.

It seems that R3 is pair price while the other ones single units.

 

[Macfox]

For anyone interested in more measurements, the German site i-Fidelity has measurements of the Rubicon 2. Not completely flat (bass hump and raised treble), but very stable impedance (lowest measurement of 4.4 Ohms exceeds the nominal value of 4 Ohms) and very clean waterfall graph (low cumulative spectral decay). Combine this with the very low distortion numbers from Stereo.de, and I wouldn't say these speakers are all looks and no substance. They just aren't completely neutral like some KEF's. However, in my opinion, speakers are the only part of the audio chain that don't have to be completely neutral.

Also, I'd like to counter the argument that there is no special design component used. SMC has proven value (there is a whitepaper with included significant differences in measurements), as do the wood fiber cones that achieve low weight, high stiffness and randomised irregularities. These things do show in the measurements.

What I also appreciate is that impedance, frequency response and sensitivity all measure better than specs. Especially impedance can be a negative surprise with some speakers...

Finally, funnily enough, I find the looks rather conservative.

 

[VintageFlanker]

For anyone interested in more measurements, the German site i-Fidelity has measurements of the Rubicon 2. Not completely flat (bass hump and raised treble)

The issue with i-Fidelity is that "everything" does look close to flat, because of their way too hard smoothing...

 

[restorer-john]

There is a teardrown here. The amps and PSU seems to be their own:View attachment 122336View attachment 122337View attachment 122338

Amp boards made in Japan. Nice.

 

[Tokyo_John]

For anyone interested in more measurements, the German site i-Fidelity has measurements of the Rubicon 2. Not completely flat (bass hump and raised treble), but very stable impedance (lowest measurement of 4.4 Ohms exceeds the nominal value of 4 Ohms) and very clean waterfall graph (low cumulative spectral decay). Combine this with the very low distortion numbers from Audio.de, and I wouldn't say these speakers are all looks and no substance. They just aren't completely neutral like some KEF's. However, in my opinion, speakers are the only part of the audio chain that don't have to be completely neutral.

Also, I'd like to counter the argument that there is no special design component used. SMC has proven value (there is a whitepaper with evidence of significant differences in measurements), as do the wood fiber cones that achieve low weight, high stiffness and randomised irregularities. These things do show in the measurements.
What I also appreciate is that impedance, frequency response and sensitivity all measure better than specs. Especially impedance can be a negative surprise with some speakers...
Finally, funnily enough, I find the looks rather conservative.

The Rubicon 2 sound great, and I came very close to buying a pair. And I agree with you about the SMC and wood fiber cone and all, I think Dali effectively adds analogue dithering to the speakers with the fibers. They are very “musical” and “organic” with solid dynamics for a “bookshelf” speaker. A fun speaker to listen to. But I agree that there is a bit of color and they don’t really stand out as being truly superb in any particular area. The Epicon 2 are more promising in terms of neutrality, and ditch the square cabinet, and are very pretty...but the price is quite high.

Still, after listening to KEF R3 in a shop I became hooked on the Uni-Q coaxial mid/high drivers, the imaging and articulation bowled me over, it haunted me and I knew I would pine for that (regret it) if I bought the Dalis. I made up my mind to get a KEF. The R3 have an absurdly high price here, eliminating them from consideration. So the LS50 Meta became my target, and I found the new version to be everything they’re cracked up to be. And the transparency and neutrality they offer in mids and highs is like looking through a sparkling clear window, I like it more than I expected. I ordered a pair and they’re hooked in to my system right now, we are very much enjoying the run-in period. I have a bit of nerves with the exposed drivers and kids running around, but they were very good with my older speakers and so I’m hoping that precedent continues (they also never mess with my camera gear).

The LS50 lack low end muscle, but I don’t want any of that right now in my present living situation. I actually like how I can turn up the volume a bit with the LS50 Meta without shaking any walls, ceilings, or floors. I now realize how much my needs and wishes differed from many others on this and other forums when it comes to the lower registers. I move house later this year, and I aim to be in a situation that allows a sub...considering whether the KC62 fit the bill.

In any case, this is a good illustration to me of the importance of being able to hear speakers before buying. Had I bought the Rubicon 2 I would surely be happy, but I also wouldn’t know that there are other cheaper (~2/3) options out there that I would enjoy even more. They say “ignorance is bliss,” but that’s not how I like to live my life.

 

[Macfox]

The issue with i-Fidelity is that "everything" does look close to flat, because of their way too hard smoothing...

Agreed, but that doesn't change the measured impedance or cumulative spectral decay. A KEF R300 that's specced as 8 Ohms measures lower than the Rubicon 2 that's specced as 4 Ohms. Decay is also lower with the Dali's. Something like a kEF LS50 Meta does have a flatter frequency response. Whether one prefers that or not is subjective. Objectively speaking, the latest KEF's have admirable neutrality. I'm just saying that doesn't automatically make them the superior speaker.
My point is that speakers IMO are the only part where your ears are the deciding factor. For some that's a neutral KEF, for some that's a less neutral Dali. Both have their strengths and weaknesses (both subjectively and objectively).

@Tokyo_John: congratulations on your new speakers. They seem to be really great, going on measurements and experiences of people that bought them. Also, if you like those speakers the best, they are the best for you!
Here are some measurements if you're interested. Great neutrality. Just be careful with the amplifier at high levels, since they dip to 3.5 Ohms and have a relatively low sensitivity of 85 dB @ 2.83 volts. In a smaller room at sensible listening levels, this probably won't be a problem though. Just check amplifier temp and listen for distortion when having a wild party

Edit: a glowing review and some more measurements at Stereo.de.