Dali speakers

[Tokyo_John]

What is the order(in terms of price) of their different speaker series? They have so many series on their page(and no prices) that I'm having trouble making sense of it at a glance.

I agree it is confusing, but price generally goes from top down in their listing, but also includes active and other options. The order of passive stereo pairs in terms of price point goes like...
Epicon (2,6,8) ... the flagships
Rubicon (LCR,2,5,6,8) LCR=wall
Menuet (only a single speaker in this line, used to be in the “Mentor”)
Opticon (LCR,1,2,5,6,8)
Fazon (designer speakers, micro=wall, sat)
Oberon (wall,1,3,5,7,9)
Zensor (pico,1,3,5,7)
Spektor (1,2,6) ... budget series

Wow, that is a lot of speakers. It is said that they produce almost everything in-house, at a single manufactory. Oberon and up gets their “Soft Magnetic Compound” (SMC) mid+bass drivers. Based on what I’ve heard myself in shops, the sound stage, grunt, and dynamics generally go up as one ascends the price ladder. The larger speakers in each series (high number) get bi-amping possibilities, more dynamics and dig deeper, and some also have a combo ribbon+dome tweeter. The Epicon series has beautiful cabinets (most others are fairly boxy affairs) and the Epis also aim for very balanced neutral tonal transparency (reference type). The Rubicons have similar (same?) moving parts as the Epicon, but lose the curvy cabinetry and are more tonally “warm” than the Epicons...they cost about 3/5 the price of the flagships. The Menuets are another factor of ~2 lower in price down from the smallest Rubicon 2 (which are kind of like larger Menuets). Spektor-Opticon is more difficult for me to parse...the differences in sound seem to be incremental across this part of the range, the Menuet-Rubicon-Epicon series seem to more clearly separate themselves from the pack (but take this with a grain of salt...I haven’t spent the time necessary to really hear and understand the differences across the entire range).

 

[restorer-john]

I find the Zensor 1s to be very musical and fun to listen to, although they are more laid back in nature and don’t really stand up and grab me as a listener.

The Zensor 1s are pretty much bottom of the range, entry level speakers from Dali. Their top end 'zing' is too pronounced for my liking, they cannot handle much in the way of power and there is no bass to speak of. But they are tiny little things- expectations are in line with their stature.

There's a pair sitting right opposite me on my speaker wall, but I rarely use them. Cute as a button, and inexpensive, but not a good example of what Dali can showcase IMO.

Some of the Dalis from the distant past were beautiful speakers, sadly not sold or supported well in this country.

 

[richard12511]

I agree it is confusing, but price generally goes from top down in their listing, but also includes active and other options. The order of passive stereo pairs in terms of price point goes like...
Epicon (2,6,8) ... the flagships
Rubicon (LCR,2,5,6,8) LCR=wall
Menuet (only a single speaker in this line, used to be in the “Mentor”)
Opticon (LCR,1,2,5,6,8)
Fazon (designer speakers, micro=wall, sat)
Oberon (wall,1,3,5,7,9)
Zensor (pico,1,3,5,7)
Spektor (1,2,6) ... budget series

Wow, that is a lot of speakers. It is said that they produce almost everything in-house, at a single manufactory. Oberon and up gets their “Soft Magnetic Compound” (SMC) mid+bass drivers. Based on what I’ve heard myself in shops, the sound stage, grunt, and dynamics generally go up as one ascends the price ladder. The larger speakers in each series (high number) get bi-amping possibilities, more dynamics and dig deeper, and some also have a combo ribbon+dome tweeter. The Epicon series has beautiful cabinets (most others are fairly boxy affairs) and the Epis also aim for very balanced neutral tonal transparency (reference type). The Rubicons have similar (same?) moving parts as the Epicon, but lose the curvy cabinetry and are more tonally “warm” than the Epicons...they cost about 3/5 the price of the flagships. The Menuets are another factor of ~2 lower in price down from the smallest Rubicon 2 (which are kind of like larger Menuets). Spektor-Opticon is more difficult for me to parse...the differences in sound seem to be incremental across this part of the range, the Menuet-Rubicon-Epicon series seem to more clearly separate themselves from the pack (but take this with a grain of salt...I haven’t spent the time necessary to really hear and understand the differences across the entire range).

Damn, I had no idea the Epicon 8 was a $100,000 speaker. It looks nice, but not that nice, and only 35Hz extension for a $100,000 speaker seems strange.

 

[thewas]

Damn, I had no idea the Epicon 8 was a $100,000 speaker. It looks nice, but not that nice, and only 35Hz extension for a $100,000 speaker seems strange.

How do you come to $100k? Here in Europe a pair costs 15000€.

 

[richard12511]

How do you come to $100k? Here in Europe a pair costs 15000€.

I just googled "Dali Epicon 8 price". Guess I was duped by a poorly worded article title

 

[Tokyo_John]

I’m about to pull the trigger on the Rubicon 2’s but keep getting distracted...

I looked at the LCR in more detail and they look nicer than I thought, with a hybrid dome+ribbon tweeter and a cabinet optimized for wall mounting, which eliminates some variables in placement (no worries about stands, wall separation, etc.).

Then there is the Epicon 2, which has a curved cabinet that is claimed to help with cabinet resonances (not just for beauty). This may be what explains the lumpy bass spectra of the boxy Rubicon 2 compared to the smooth spectra of the Epicon 2. Anyways, the Epicon 2 are significantly more pricey, but may be that much better.

Probably I need to take a trip to a shop to hear these in-person, it is difficult to imagine spending as much as the Epicon 2 cost without an in-person listen.

 

[q3cpma]

I’m about to pull the trigger on the Rubicon 2’s but keep getting distracted...

I looked at the LCR in more detail and they look nicer than I thought, with a hybrid dome+ribbon tweeter and a cabinet optimized for wall mounting, which eliminates some variables in placement (no worries about stands, wall separation, etc.).

Then there is the Epicon 2, which has a curved cabinet that is claimed to help with cabinet resonances (not just for beauty). This may be what explains the lumpy bass spectra of the boxy Rubicon 2 compared to the smooth spectra of the Epicon 2. Anyways, the Epicon 2 are significantly more pricey, but may be that much better.

Probably I need to take a trip to a shop to hear these in-person, it is difficult to imagine spending as much as the Epicon 2 cost without an in-person listen.

You do realize that these are probably not very good speakers, right? Just to be sure you're conscious that you're buying style, not sound quality.

 

[Tokyo_John]

You do realize that these are probably not very good speakers, right? Just to be sure you're conscious that you're buying style, not sound quality.

Maybe you could elaborate? Which speaker(s)? Dali in general? In what ways? What do you think is good sound quality?

 

[q3cpma]

Maybe you could elaborate? Which speaker(s)? Dali in general? In what ways?

Dali in general, but even more their 2-ways as they shun waveguides and hard domes, more than probably for styling reasons. And even without that, they don't seem to sport any technology worth their price: not coaxial, not CD, no LF directivity control, and obviously no official measurements.
But they do know their target customer base' taste in style.

What do you think is good sound quality?

Speakers with the least distortion possible (time domain, linear, nonlinear, in all directions). I want to listen to music through speakers, not speakers themselves.

 

[Tokyo_John]

Dali in general, but even more their 2-ways as they shun waveguides and hard domes, more than probably for styling reasons. And even without that, they don't seem to sport any technology worth their price: not coaxial, not CD, no LF directivity control, and obviously no official measurements.
But they do know their target customer base' taste in style.

Speakers with the least distortion possible (time domain, linear, nonlinear, in all directions). I want to listen to music through speakers, not speakers themselves.

OK, I appreciate your response and time/effort. What would you consider to be a better alternative in the bookshelf spectrum?

 

[q3cpma]

OK, I appreciate your response and time/effort. What would you consider to be a better alternative in the bookshelf spectrum?

Depends on your aesthetic needs. Seeing your budget and wanting no subwoofer, most here would recommend these:
* Neumann KH310A - an incredible 3-way speaker. Sadly, they don't have Neumann's newest room correction functionality by themselves.
* Genelec SAM speaker (8340A, 8350A, 8341A, 8351B) with a GLM kit - amongst the best speakers (for the Ones) you can get, the only problems are the high price and the controversial styling (though the white version usually fits better in some home designs).
* Buchardt A500 - a nice modern Hi-Fi active that may do well if you don't listen loud.
* GGNTKT M1 - very stylish, incredible performance and "moderate" price compared to D&D and Kii.
* Kef R3 - one of the best passives, needing only a bit of EQ to really shine.
* Revel M106 - very good, but very pricy, especially in Europe.

But before continuing further, some important questions:
* Room size and listening distance?
* Where are you? Prices really vary in function of that.
* How do you/will you apply digital room correction? If you don't already have an AVR to do that, note that Genelec has a very good solution built into their speakers.
* Is the subwoofer option really out? Because Neumann's KH750DSP allows the KH310A to become a fantastic 4-way and get room/phase correction.

 

[diddley]

 

[Tokyo_John]

Depends on your aesthetic needs. Seeing your budget and wanting no subwoofer, most here would recommend these:
* Neumann KH310A - an incredible 3-way speaker. Sadly, they don't have Neumann's newest room correction functionality by themselves.
* Genelec SAM speaker (8340A, 8350A, 8341A, 8351B) with a GLM kit - amongst the best speakers (for the Ones) you can get, the only problems are the high price and the controversial styling (though the white version usually fits better in some home designs).
* Buchardt A500 - a nice modern Hi-Fi active that may do well if you don't listen loud.
* GGNTKT M1 - very stylish, incredible performance and "moderate" price compared to D&D and Kii.
* Kef R3 - one of the best passives, needing only a bit of EQ to really shine.
* Revel M106 - very good, but very pricy, especially in Europe.

Among these I've only heard the KEF R3, which sounded very flat to me ears. I'll check out the others, but I was looking more at passive (but could be convinced to go active, room correction seems to be easiest that way).

But before continuing further, some important questions:
* Room size and listening distance?

Room: 4x(3-6) (3-6 because the room opens into an adjacent room and sometimes we listen from there.
Listening distance: 2-5
Note that I will be moving house in under a year, and don't know what room I'll have from that point. Probably small.

* Where are you? Prices really vary in function of that.

Tokyo.

* How do you/will you apply digital room correction? If you don't already have an AVR to do that, note that Genelec has a very good solution built into their speakers.

Open to suggestions, but I'll likely be going with passive speakers.

* Is the subwoofer option really out? Because Neumann's KH750DSP allows the KH310A to become a fantastic 4-way and get room/phase correction.

No subwoofer. If a neighbor hears anything, it is serious trouble, especially for a foreigner. Most people here stick to headphones.

 

[Tokyo_John]

The Guru Q10 vs Dali Rubicon 6 is difficult to judge, the bigger speakers sound claustrophobic in that space, almost boomy which overwhelms the sound signature. I like the highs in the Guru pair but mid vocals seem recessed and the bass is not so convincingly textured.

Here is a comparison between 2 similar sized stand mounted speakers that seems better contrived...

And another with a wider selection to compare...

In both of the above, the Dali Rubicon 2's really stand out from the crowd. I wouldn't say they are more "transparent" (also difficult to judge from listening samples) but for listening enjoyment with a slight warmth and less fatiguing character...

 

[q3cpma]

Among these I've only heard the KEF R3, which sounded very flat to me ears. I'll check out the others, but I was looking more at passive (but could be convinced to go active, room correction seems to be easiest that way).


Room: 4x(3-6) (3-6 because the room opens into an adjacent room and sometimes we listen from there.
Listening distance: 2-5
Note that I will be moving house in under a year, and don't know what room I'll have from that point. Probably small.


Tokyo.


Open to suggestions, but I'll likely be going with passive speakers.


No subwoofer. If a neighbor hears anything, it is serious trouble, especially for a foreigner. Most people here stick to headphones.

Considering the quite long listening distance and not wanting to annoy the neighbourhood, the R3's narrow dispersion might be the best choice. Some miniDSP with Dirac + a Hypex MP252 amp should be good on the electronics side.

 

[Tokyo_John]

Considering the quite long listening distance and not wanting to annoy the neighbourhood, the R3's narrow dispersion might be the best choice. Some miniDSP with Dirac + a Hypex MP252 amp should be good on the electronics side.

Thanks, I think I'll have to give the R3's another chance, I'm going to try and get to a shop for another listen. Locally, the prices are...
Dali Rubicon 2: JPY230,000
KEF R3: JPY300,000
Dali Epicon 2: JPY370,000
So the KEF R3 are priced right in the middle between the top Dalis, and I need to assess them accordingly.

EDIT: Looks like the KEF R3 are just $2k USD in the USA, and the Dalis are a bit more expensive. Brexit is not going to be good for KEF.

 

[q3cpma]

Thanks, I think I'll have to give the R3's another chance, I'm going to try and get to a shop for another listen. Locally, the prices are...
Dali Rubicon 2: JPY230,000
KEF R3: JPY300,000
Dali Epicon 2: JPY370,000
So the KEF R3 are priced right in the middle between the top Dalis, and I need to assess them accordingly.

EDIT: Looks like the KEF R3 are just $2k USD in the USA, and the Dalis are a bit more expensive. Brexit is not going to be good for KEF.

Strange pricing. Here, it is like so:
* R3: 1600€
* Rubicon 2: 1900€
* Epicon 2: 4800€ (!)

 

[Tokyo_John]

Strange pricing. Here, it is like so:
* R3: 1600€
* Rubicon 2: 1900€
* Epicon 2: 4800€ (!)

Very different, but your prices seem strange to me!

Here is the conversion of Japan prices to a number of western currencies:
Dali Rubicon 2: 230,000 ¥ = 1766.63 € = $ 2077.82 = £ 1502.37
KEF R3: 300,000 ¥ = 2304.30 € = $ 2710.28 = £ 1959.60
Dali Epicon 2: 370,000 ¥ = 2841.97 € = $ 3342.58 = £ 2416.86

The Dali Epicon 2 price difference is enormous!

Now you might see why I'm already biased toward Dali, which is a very popular speaker in Japan (these are tough customers) and the price is an excellent value. Why is a speaker from Denmark getting such a better price than a speaker from the UK? I don't know.

 

[q3cpma]

Very different, but your prices seem strange to me!

Here is the conversion of Japan prices to a number of western currencies:
Dali Rubicon 2: 230,000 ¥ = 1766.63 € = $ 2077.82 = £ 1502.37
KEF R3: 300,000 ¥ = 2304.30 € = $ 2710.28 = £ 1959.60
Dali Epicon 2: 370,000 ¥ = 2841.97 € = $ 3342.58 = £ 2416.86

The Dali Epicon 2 price difference is enormous!

Now you might see why I'm already biased toward Dali, which is a very popular speaker in Japan (these are tough customers) and the price is an excellent value. Why is a speaker from Denmark getting such a better price than a speaker from the UK? I don't know.

The thing is that those Dalis aren't even comparable to the R3, as one is 3-way and coaxial while the other is a waveguide-less and 2-way, two inconvenients that compound each other. One is style + value, the other is just style.
And I say that as someone whose first speakers where Zensor 1, which I didn't dislike.

 

[MarcT]

The mids seem much more forward and pronounced on the Guru Q10, compared to the Rubicon 6. I wonder if they matched the overall sound levels? It may be that, in order to compare those two speakers, you'd have to match their mid range levels and see how the rest of the frequencies come out.