DACs that better compensate for noise

[solderdude]

Just curious, why do so many people build dedicated computers or pi's for their music if there is nothing wrong with using their main every day computer? And why do people buy better power supplies for their pi's or computers. Why do people concern themselves with these things...it seems that most people that are in this for a hobby do something to improve their sound, and almost everybody reports this, that, or the other thing, sounds better. Are all the people that have separate music computers or that use ethernet or bridges or spdif that think one things sounds better than the other are all just crazy. Personally, i think it is somewhere in the middle....but nothing dramatic, as many people proclaim.

People do that because they believe it makes a difference. When comparing sighted (knowing what they are using) this ensures confirmation and or incorrect results.

i just assume it is a noise issue if network sounds better than usb to me...but as others have stated, maybe it is my imagination....same goes with spdif too, that to me, it just sounds better.

When this is about truth-finding you need a bunch of specific conditions in place. Leave one out and the result is not about truth anymore but about favoring conditions. They so appear valid for the testers and ultimately base their choices on 'rigged' results. But when one doesn't mind I don't mind either. When one really wants to know the truth you can learn to do that here.

Nothing wrong when one likes to compare things without those controls in place when you are not trying to find out the truth but any 'test results' from such comparisons are null and void for most folks at ASR.

Also, as you have stated, Amir doesn't test everything, and there is likely some more sophisticated equipment out there that may show some things he does not test. Also no one fully understands human hearing... there are just so many variables and considerations. Even though i lean more toward objective measurements, I don't usually end up in one camp or the other......jmo...

Amir tests what he deems essential to test. You need specialized EMC equipment to perform valid/calibrated test results for EMC.
Even more expensive than an AP !
The fun part is that when one connects and sets up a hifi system properly with decently designed audio equipment there is no influence from the outside and performance is equal to the measurements done by Amir (or others).
The idea that 'we' can't test all electric parameters is complete BS coined by those that do not test properly and/or do not understand measurements.

There is no 'in between' in reality.
You either test correctly or you don't.
You can test correctly both by ear and/or measurements.
Do a half-ass job with either method and the results are flawed.

The most difficult part is to know when tests are done correctly and when they are not.
Those that have learned to test correctly will know when tests are done incorrectly (it is painfully obvious to them)
Those that do not know exactly how to test correctly and apply incorrect testing protocols (thinking they do it correctly) simply cannot fathom what is important and why their test results are flawed, despite these persons 'clearly' hearing it with night-and-day differences that they do not even have to test blind in their (flawed) opinion.

 

[wineandmusic]

People do that because they believe it makes a difference. When comparing sighted (knowing what they are using) this ensures confirmation and or incorrect results.



When this is about truth-finding you need a bunch of specific conditions in place. Leave one out and the result is not about truth anymore but about favoring conditions. They so appear valid for the testers and ultimately base their choices on 'rigged' results. But when one doesn't mind I don't mind either. When one really wants to know the truth you can learn to do that here.

Nothing wrong when one likes to compare things without those controls in place when you are not trying to find out the truth but any 'test results' from such comparisons are null and void for most folks at ASR.



Amir tests what he deems essential to test. You need specialized EMC equipment to perform valid/calibrated test results for EMC.
Even more expensive than an AP !
The fun part is that when one connects and sets up a hifi system properly with decently designed audio equipment there is no influence from the outside and performance is equal to the measurements done by Amir (or others).
The idea that 'we' can't test all electric parameters is complete BS coined by those that do not test properly and/or do not understand measurements.

There is no 'in between' in reality.
You either test correctly or you don't.
You can test correctly both by ear and/or measurements.
Do a half-ass job with either method and the results are flawed.

The most difficult part is to know when tests are done correctly and when they are not.
Those that have learned to test correctly will know when tests are done incorrectly (it is painfully obvious to them)
Those that do not know exactly how to test correctly and apply incorrect testing protocols (thinking they do it correctly) simply cannot fathom what is important and why their test results are flawed, despite these persons 'clearly' hearing it with night-and-day differences that they do not even have to test blind in their (flawed) opinion.

And why do you suppose different software sounds different (excluding drc,dsp,etc)? or is that a fallacy too?
And when you change nothing but the software would they show up in amir's tests?

 

[Fluffy]

I have two DACs connected to my PC with USB and I never heard any sort of noise coming out of them that has anything to do with what to computer is doing.

 

[solderdude]

And why do you suppose different software sounds different (excluding drc,dsp,etc)? or is that a fallacy too?
And when you change nothing but the software would they show up in amir's tests?

It seems you consider this to be a fact.

HOW did you test the differences between software ?
Under what conditions ? What verifiable test methods were used ? Did you do null testing ?

For this too:

You either test correctly or you don't.
You can test correctly both by ear and/or measurements.
Do a half-ass job with either method and the results are flawed.

 

[wineandmusic]

People do that because they believe it makes a difference. When comparing sighted (knowing what they are using) this ensures confirmation and or incorrect results.



When this is about truth-finding you need a bunch of specific conditions in place. Leave one out and the result is not about truth anymore but about favoring conditions. They so appear valid for the testers and ultimately base their choices on 'rigged' results. But when one doesn't mind I don't mind either. When one really wants to know the truth you can learn to do that here.

Nothing wrong when one likes to compare things without those controls in place when you are not trying to find out the truth but any 'test results' from such comparisons are null and void for most folks at ASR.



Amir tests what he deems essential to test. You need specialized EMC equipment to perform valid/calibrated test results for EMC.
Even more expensive than an AP !
The fun part is that when one connects and sets up a hifi system properly with decently designed audio equipment there is no influence from the outside and performance is equal to the measurements done by Amir (or others).
The idea that 'we' can't test all electric parameters is complete BS coined by those that do not test properly and/or do not understand measurements.

There is no 'in between' in reality.
You either test correctly or you don't.
You can test correctly both by ear and/or measurements.
Do a half-ass job with either method and the results are flawed.

The most difficult part is to know when tests are done correctly and when they are not.
Those that have learned to test correctly will know when tests are done incorrectly (it is painfully obvious to them)
Those that do not know exactly how to test correctly and apply incorrect testing protocols (thinking they do it correctly) simply cannot fathom what is important and why their test results are flawed, despite these persons 'clearly' hearing it with night-and-day differences that they do not even have to test blind in their (flawed) opinion.

So accordingly, any dac that measures well is relatively accurate at recreating the analog signal near perfectly and should all sound relatively the same? Has he tested internal DACS in like Marantz AVR's?
In the beginning you said that different dacs sound differently, but how can that be true if the only purpose is to accurately recreate the analog signal and they measure well? THere is something flawed with that logic? Either they are accurate or they are not.

 

[Purité Audio]

The last ‘music computer’ I had built ( before I knew better) used a SoTM USB card, linear power supply stripped down OS,JPlay playback software, everything that was fashionable at that time, absolutely no difference compared to my laptop when compared through the same dac.
Keith

 

[solderdude]

So accordingly, any dac that measures well is relatively accurate at recreating the analog signal near perfectly and should all sound relatively the same?

When they use similar filters, have similar frequency response, have a SINAD > 80 the answer is: correct

Has he tested internal DACS in like Marantz AVR's?

You'd have to look at the devices he tested.

In the beginning you said that different dacs sound differently, but how can that be true if the only purpose is to accurately recreate the analog signal and they measure well? THere is something flawed with that logic? Either they are accurate or they are not.

Because some manufacturers (purposely or not) design DAC's that do not adhere to the rules for proper reconstruction. Some of these are audible different and most certainly are measurable different. They just cater for people that are not into accurate reproduction but prefer a different performance. ASR members are really only interested in finding the ones that produce accurate (true to the described wavefrom taking the sampling theorem serious) results. Amir, Wolf's and some others measurements help to weed the pleathora of offerings.
That's all there is to it.

Test correctly or don't bother.

 

[March Audio]

Is there no one on this site that believes music via the network or from a separate specialized computer can sound better than from your daily use windows pc given the same dac?

Not with any of the dacs I have used.

 

[BDWoody]

Is there no one on this site that believes music via the network or from a separate specialized computer can sound better than from your daily use windows pc given the same dac?

I'm sure there are...but they are likely new.

 

[BDWoody]

i just assume it is a noise issue if network sounds better than usb to me...but as others have stated, maybe it is my imagination....same goes with spdif too, that to me, it just sounds better. I have no way of proving this...

Sure you do...

While it can be a pain, setting up a level matched double blind test will tell you a lot more about it than all the people out there who tell you what you are supposed to hear.

The brain is very obliging of our expectations for the most part...that is just how it works. If the $10k DAC is supposed to sound better, it magically will. If the digital USB cable I bought because some online audio assclown told me it improves the sound, then gosh it really does, etc..

Do yourself the biggest favor of your audio life, and prove some of this for yourself...it can lead to a very different audio future.

For the many thousands I was about to pay for some overhyped DAC, I have gotten loaded up with some quite nice (to me) speakers, which have ACTUALLY improved my sound system.

Keep reading...you aren't asking crazy questions...even if the answers sound crazy.

 

[wineandmusic]

When they use similar filters, have similar frequency response, have a SINAD > 80 the answer is: correct
.

so which players have a sinad < 80? How about moode, volumio, and jriver?

 

[wineandmusic]

ASR members are really only interested in finding the ones that produce accurate (
.

So if you don't agree, then you are banned from here?
I guess it is fortunate that I am interested in ones that are accurate.

 

[A Surfer]

JRiver is a great player, I use it extensively. I used Foobar2000 before and also enjoyed it very much. On the portable side I have used and still use Onkyo HF Player and Neutron. There are others that people very much enjoy. The only critical factor for sound reproduction is whether the player supports true bit perfect output and can allow you to get around any baked in sound processing the OS might have.

 

[wineandmusic]

Because some manufacturers (purposely or not) design DAC's that do not adhere to the rules for proper reconstruction. Some of these are audible different and most certainly are measurable different.

So if you weed out, and only look at the dacs in the "green zone", then they will all sound the same and are all accurate?

 

[A Surfer]

So if you don't agree, then you are banned from here?
I guess it is fortunate that I am interested in ones that are accurate.

No, but people will hold your feet to the fire and not waver in their support for science and the need for evidence based evaluations. Seriously, you can save a ton of money if you have the courgae to truly test your assumptions. Those who lack the courage to do so risk wasting lots of money in this hobby.

 

[wineandmusic]

The last ‘music computer’ I had built ( before I knew better) used a SoTM USB card, linear power supply stripped down OS,JPlay playback software, everything that was fashionable at that time, absolutely no difference compared to my laptop when compared through the same dac.
Keith

To be honest, i hope i can believe this some day, and i am open to the thought.
I have to admit, after creating a volumio in a separate x86 box, I didn't hear any improvement, and thought to myself maybe i need to put it on a pi with a better ps....what i don't get, is that when i play native dsd through a marantz avr it defintely sounds better than playing though any of a dozen different usb dacs I have tried.

 

[BDWoody]

So if you don't agree, then you are banned from here?
I guess it is fortunate that I am interested in ones that are accurate.

Of course not...people are typically only banned for being disrespectful and obnoxious...not for disagreeing... Trolls aren't welcome. Diverse views are.

There are many here with every kind of approach...but most are seeking the highest fidelity as a matter of course, and eliminating what doesn't get us closer, based on reproduceable observations, both objective and (controlled) subjective.

 

[solderdude]

so which players have a sinad < 80? How about moode, volumio, and jriver?

There is a SINAD list that can tell you. This, however as nothing to do with moode, volumio nor jriver.

 

[solderdude]

So if you don't agree, then you are banned from here?
I guess it is fortunate that I am interested in ones that are accurate.

No, that is no reason for banning anyone.

 

[solderdude]

So if you weed out, and only look at the dacs in the "green zone", then they will all sound the same and are all accurate?

Again, they most likely will, unless you select certain filters that modify the sound within the audible band or there are serious things wrong in other aspects than noise and distortion of 1kHz.