DACs that better compensate for noise

[A Surfer]

He personally compared using his everyday (non optimized in any way) windows computer connected directly to a dac to same system with an SOTM in between and was not able to hear any differences either subjective or objective? I would love to see such a study.

No you wouldn't. If I had to guess, and I am guessing, I don't think you want to really challenge your beliefs. Clearly you have deeply ingrained beliefs that no amount of evidence will unseat because you have invested your personal identity into your gear. Much how rabid sports fans can feel that the accomplishments of their favourite players and teams reflects on them when clearly it has nothing to do with them. If somebody becomes emotional invested in an identity it is very, very difficult to get them to move from that identity.

 

[gvl]

He personally compared using his everyday (non optimized in any way) windows computer connected directly to a dac to same system with an SOTM in between and was not able to hear any differences either subjective or objective? I would love to see such a study.
If true, i will likely buy whatever dac he was using.

Thing is, if a DAC is already up there measurement wise being tested in a "not optimized" manner, improvements from "optimizations", if any, are not something that you will be able to hear. So just grab a DAC with the features you need that scored well here and don't think about it.

 

[wineandmusic]

No you wouldn't. If I had to guess, and I am guessing, I don't think you want to really challenge your beliefs. Clearly you have deeply ingrained beliefs that no amount of evidence will unseat because you have invested your personal identity into your gear. Much how rabid sports fans can feel that the accomplishments of their favourite players and teams reflects on them when clearly it has nothing to do with them. If somebody becomes emotional invested in an identity it is very, very difficult to get them to move from that identity.

You are very wrong here. I am not biased one way or the other and have no emotional investment in one solution over another. If I did, it would be more for ease of use and simplicity over anything else.

 

[wineandmusic]

I have spent enough on DACs before. Please don't try that old slight of hand trick. If the person tells you they don't believe in your claims, you find out what they have spent and tell them that they can't hear the differences because they didn't spend enough money to get the really competent designs.

Try a trick? Really? I think you are reading my intentions wrong. I am 61 years old...I am just curious as to what dacs and solutions you have compared.

 

[wineandmusic]

Thing is, if a DAC is already up there measurement wise being tested in a "not optimized" manner, improvements from "optimizations", if any, are not something that you will be able to hear. So just grab a DAC with the features you need that scored well here and don't think about it.

I've had a number of DACs, and I've not used a SOTM.

Amir has done the measurements of which you speak. Even using his lab grade B&K power supply. When I've time later maybe I post links to them, but you can find them here with a little looking.

Ok, i look forward to the link if you find the comparison...thanks

 

[dfuller]

So what is the "right" DAC? In theory, they should all sound the same.

The issue is not the DAC itself, but the USB implementation leaking packet noise into the signal.

 

[Webninja]

Search and read, then make up your own mind. I have run informal dac tests on a fresh Mac vs older machine, no difference, but it wasn’t an ABX test. I think only severe network or cpu process could create a lag/buffering, but that’s not a DAC issue.

I admit I’ve spent $ on special usb cords thinking i’d get better sound, and the tests that Amir ran prevented any further waste of $. I think this site offers information and data with clear methodology. If we choose to use the data to alter our purchases or not is up to the individual.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Ok, i look forward to the link if you find the comparison...thanks

This should do for a start.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-of-intona-usb-isolator-for-audio-dacs.2616/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-review-of-sotm-sms-200-network-player.1846/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../uptone-audio-etherregen-switch-review.10232/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ptone-iso-regen-review-and-measurements.1829/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ar-power-supply-review-and-measurements.1849/

 

[wineandmusic]

This should do for a start.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-of-intona-usb-isolator-for-audio-dacs.2616/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-review-of-sotm-sms-200-network-player.1846/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../uptone-audio-etherregen-switch-review.10232/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ptone-iso-regen-review-and-measurements.1829/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ar-power-supply-review-and-measurements.1849/

Thanks i will look through them....first one i read his comment:

"Schiit products seem to be sensitive to quality of USB power."

That was in 2017....I wonder if Amir still doesn't believe that usb can make a difference?
I am very open minded, but i personally can hear differences, and can even provide a track and what to listen for in different comparisons I have tried.

 

[wineandmusic]

The issue is not the DAC itself, but the USB implementation leaking packet noise into the signal.

Please expand and clarify this statement?

 

[wineandmusic]

Search and read, then make up your own mind. I have run informal dac tests on a fresh Mac vs older machine, no difference, but it wasn’t an ABX test. I think only severe network or cpu process could create a lag/buffering, but that’s not a DAC issue.

I admit I’ve spent $ on special usb cords thinking i’d get better sound, and the tests that Amir ran prevented any further waste of $. I think this site offers information and data with clear methodology. If we choose to use the data to alter our purchases or not is up to the individual.

I personally don't believe in buying any special cords outside of spec. I also appreciate objective testing for the purpose of creating a short list. I typically will buy and compare a few different products and resell what i don't keep, and typically will hear slight differences with critical listening. All i know is that i typically will always hear better results from network,spdif, or even a thumbdrive player as compared to usb out my daily windows pc. I wish it wasn't so, which is why I am looking for a usb dac that can equal the sq of my network solution.

Also since this is an objective website, I am also curious as to my question if a 24/192K PCM DAC will produce an as clean signal as a DSD256 DAC.
I am curious if it may make sense to buy a higher end dac from 5 or so years ago (like an ayre, ARC or similar) over one of the modern cheaper dacs?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Thanks i will look through them....first one i read his comment:

"Schiit products seem to be sensitive to quality of USB power."

That was in 2017....I wonder if Amir still doesn't believe that usb can make a difference?
I am very open minded, but i personally can hear differences, and can even provide a track and what to listen for in different comparisons I have tried.

Are these level matched blind listening results or sighted uncontrolled listening results?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Thanks i will look through them....first one i read his comment:

"Schiit products seem to be sensitive to quality of USB power."

That was in 2017....I wonder if Amir still doesn't believe that usb can make a difference?
I am very open minded, but i personally can hear differences, and can even provide a track and what to listen for in different comparisons I have tried.

Yes, because Schiit products were basically broken designs. They actually have paid attention and rectified many of their problems after Amir brought them to light. For which I give them lots of credit.

You can of course ask Amir his opinion. I'm pretty sure his opinion is a great majority of DACs are effectively impervious to the USB input, and those that aren't (which aren't many) are not well engineered designs.

 

[wineandmusic]

Are these level matched blind listening results or sighted uncontrolled listening results?

No. Just a casual listener doing my own comparison testing, and maybe it is not the USB, but something else...that would be nice to know....I just want my windows pc usb out to sound as good as my enet solution.

 

[wineandmusic]

Yes, because Schiit products were basically broken designs. They actually have paid attention and rectified many of their problems after Amir brought them to light. For which I give them lots of credit.

You can of course ask Amir his opinion. I'm pretty sure his opinion is a great majority of DACs are effectively impervious to the USB input, and those that aren't (which aren't many) are not well engineered designs.

That would be quite impressive if Amir knows USB better than Moffat...

 

[wineandmusic]

You can of course ask Amir his opinion. I'm pretty sure his opinion is a great majority of DACs are effectively impervious to the USB input, and those that aren't (which aren't many) are not well engineered designs.

Do you know what Amir's opinion is on upsampling?
My current thinking is that anything more than 24/192K pcm is over kill, where it seems many people on "the other site", believe that if it ain't quad dsd, it ain't crap.

 

[Blumlein 88]

No. Just a casual listener doing my own comparison testing, and maybe it is not the USB, but something else...that would be nice to know....I just want my windows pc usb out to sound as good as my enet solution.

Please don't take this the wrong way. Almost everyone does. I'm going to eliminate lots of chatter.

Such casual listening is effectively useless. It is almost guaranteed you'll be influenced by non-sound qualities and beliefs. Just how humans work. No slight to you nor insult just how things are. I don't doubt your sincerity, what you 'heard' or your carefulness. But without blinding and controlled listening you are only fooling yourself and because of how the human mind works virtually guaranteed to fool yourself with that methodology.

Many of us have been there. Care to know more?

 

[A Surfer]

Ignorance is bliss, and sometimes ignorance needs a booster shot to be maintained. This community will not be that booster shot.

 

[solderdude]

Are there any DACS that sound as good hooked up to a daily use pc as being hooked up to a streamer?
I understand the concept of the streamer to isolate the noisy pc, but my thinking is that at a certain price point that a dac may be able to compensate for a noisy pc?

A: Some DACs do sound different and measure substantially different.
B: Amir measures S/N ratio and SINAD which both contain noise measurements
C: Depends on whether or not one uses a LOT of digital attenuation or not for noise to become audible combined with how loud the transducers an play.

Now DACs do not 'compensate' for a noisy PC.

The noise you are talking about does NOT originate from the DAC. Audibility of said noise (not the self noise of the DAC) depends on how the DAC internally is constructed. Some DACs are quite susceptible for common mode noises and there may be a few dongle or USB fed DACs that are not really well built and also may exhibit not so nice behavior when the 5V is too low and noisy but still too high for them to shut itself off.

Amir does NOT test for this. In order to get results that look very deep his test system must be connected as correctly as possible.

So now back to the (what I suppose is your question) the noise you speak of is common mode noise and is created by groundloops.
Groundloops exist in many forms and are sometimes difficult to debug.
I would guess that you have a groundloop somewhere.
What happens is common mode 'noise' travels along the input cable of the DAC. That noise is 'ignored' by the input of the DAC because as the name suggests it is common mode. However, that noise is looking for path to travel through and picks the lowest impedance one.
Usually this means the mains or power connection but in some cases the audiopath is taken.
In particular the ground connection which is never a perfect 0 Ohm. In fact in some DACs there are small inductors, or ferrite beads, resistances inside. Also PCB design is very important here.
Anyways... that common mode current flows through the screen of the interlink and induces a small voltage. That voltage (as it is SE) then becomes audible. That is the noise/sounds/nasties one gets to hear in these circumstances.

Balanced connections can help here as the groundloop noise flows through the screen and not through the, intrinsically immune, balanced signal path.
Ways of stopping this from happening can include grounding, galvanic isolation of the source or other measures.

So yes.. there is a difference between DACs, signal paths etc. that in certain circumstances can make audible differences in noise levels that are not seen in Amir's plots nor in specs nor will these be present in systems of others. It could be the DAC manufacturers fault (poor design of grounding) or a design choice that doesn't pan out well. It could be the way the owner has connected everything.

One has to keep in mind that the vast majority of DAC users do not experience these effects or it is below audible levels.

The behind lying reason is that not all DAC designers are equally savvy in designing equipment that also has to deal with common mode currents. I would almost say that such is a separate form of designing for it because you have to consider signal paths that aren't obvious.
You can test for this but haven't seen it done. The problem here is that while you can use test procedures that are standard there may well be different circumstances in ones home that differ from these tests and somehow still create audible 'nasties'.

This may be the case in OP's situation... or I am talking out of my ...

 

[wineandmusic]

B: Amir measures S/N ratio and SINAD which both contain noise measurements
Now DACs do not 'compensate' for a noisy PC.

The noise you are talking about does NOT originate from the DAC. Audibility of said noise (not the self noise of the DAC) depends on how the DAC internally is constructed. Some DACs are quite susceptible for common mode noises and there may be a few dongle or USB fed DACs that are not really well built and also may exhibit not so nice behavior when the 5V is too low and noisy but still too high for them to shut itself off.

Amir does NOT test for this. In order to get results that look very deep his test system must be connected as correctly as possible.

So now back to the (what I suppose is your question) the noise you speak of is common mode noise and is created by groundloops.
Groundloops exist in many forms and are sometimes difficult to debug.
I would guess that you have a groundloop somewhere.
What happens is common mode 'noise' travels along the input cable of the DAC. That noise is 'ignored' by the input of the DAC because as the name suggests it is common mode. However, that noise is looking for path to travel through and picks the lowest impedance one.
Usually this means the mains or power connection but in some cases the audiopath is taken.
In particular the ground connection which is never a perfect 0 Ohm. In fact in some DACs there are small inductors, or ferrite beads, resistances inside. Also PCB design is very important here. Also as you say, amir doesn't test everything, and nobody fully understands human hearing, and there is likely better test equipment and tests that could show something different...there are all sorts of possibilities....I usually never fall in "one camp or the other"...jmo
Anyways... that common mode current flows through the screen of the interlink and induces a small voltage. That voltage (as it is SE) then becomes audible. That is the noise/sounds/nasties one gets to hear in these circumstances.

Balanced connections can help here as the groundloop noise flows through the screen and not through the, intrinsically immune, balanced signal path.
Ways of stopping this from happening can include grounding, galvanic isolation of the source or other measures.
.

thanks for taking the time for writing so much, even though most of it is over my head (grin), but i am sure it will help others too...

I don't have balanced inputs on my amp, so that is not an option for me. I don't know that I have any "noise" problems, i just assume it is a noise issue if network sounds better than usb to me...but as others have stated, maybe it is my imagination....same goes with spdif too, that to me, it just sounds better. I have no way of proving this and I am not sure what "ground loop" noise would sound like, so no way of knowing if i have a ground loop problem or no problem at all.

Just curious, why do so many people build dedicated computers or pi's for their music if there is nothing wrong with using their main every day computer? And why do people buy better power supplies for their pi's or computers. Why do people concern themselves with these things...it seems that most people that are in this for a hobby do something to improve their sound, and almost everybody reports this, that, or the other thing, sounds better. Are all the people that have separate music computers or that use ethernet or bridges or spdif that think one things sounds better than the other are all just crazy. Personally, i think it is somewhere in the middle....but nothing dramatic, as many people proclaim.

Also, as you have stated, Amir doesn't test everything, and there is likely some more sophisticated equipment out there that may show some things he does not test. Also no one fully understands human hearing... there are just so many variables and considerations. Even though i lean more toward objective measurements, I don't usually end up in one camp or the other......jmo...