DAC Voltage Output - Audio Quality

[Crimson17]

Hello,

I have a vintage Luxman L-410 integrated amplifier with input sensitivity of 200mv and output of 75w and Boston Acoustics T930 speakers. I bought a Wiim Pro to use it as a digital transport and I am planning to buy a SMSL RAW MDA1 / Topping D50iii as an external DAC. I would like to play only FLAC files with DLNA.

I was playing with the pre-gain and output voltage on RCA output of Wiim to keep the sensitivity as close to the sensitivity of the Luxman and I realized that I will not have the variable output option with SMSL / Topping with fixed 2Vrms .

So I was wondering what could be the best solution in this scenario to keep the audio quality at maximum as I am confused with the too much different information that I read about the pre-gain -
/ gain / volume control on digital domain and its effects to Audio Quality, clipping, dynamics etc.

a- Wiim pre-gain -10DB, Volume Fixed ---> optical to external DAC ---> RCA with 2vrms ---> Luxman
b- Wiim Volume Fixed ---> optical to external DAC ---> RCA with 2vrms ---> Passive attenuator ---> Luxman
c- Wiim Volume Fixed ---> optical to external DAC ---> RCA with <2vrms with Volume control ---> Luxman

or of course any other suggestions? (Except buying Wiim Ultra )

Thanks in advance.

 

[Sokel]

All 3 could work, even at the passive configuration Luxman is saved by its 50 kOhm input impedance.
The proper way would be to measure though, noise and distortion work in strange ways sometimes.

I would choose whatever brings down noise along with level.

 

[Crimson17]

Thanks for the answer but I do not think that I have the right equipment to measure it.

 

[Sokel]

Then choose the most convenient to you as long as you don't hear any noise, etc.
I doubt you will, at all 3 configurations, but combining gear and is tricky sometimes and gain-staging is not trivial.

 

[Crimson17]

So you say that digital gain - volume control does not have any effect on the Audio quality? I kinda more liked the "-10db pre-gain + 2Vrms RCA" out of the Wiim compared to "no pre-gain + 200mV" if it was not a placebo effect...

 

[Sokel]

Usually we want to keep the sources hot (100%) and go from there.
Luxman does not allow that though, so you have to improvise.

To give you a really good source so to understand what it takes and the reason that a simple answer is not enough:

The Signal Chain: How do noise and distortion propagate through my system?

This article is to explore how noise and distortion change through our system, and how different components can influence the final output. A common question is “If I have DAC A, preamp B, and amp C, where should I set the volume and gain controls for the best performance?” Usually this...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Despite all that, try with what you already have in hand and make sure you implement a fail-safe scheme against any possible glitch.
It's not about "flavors", is just about noise, if you hear any then you do something wrong.

 

[sergeauckland]

Hello,

I have a vintage Luxman L-410 integrated amplifier with input sensitivity of 200mv and output of 75w and Boston Acoustics T930 speakers. I bought a Wiim Pro to use it as a digital transport and I am planning to buy a SMSL RAW MDA1 / Topping D50iii as an external DAC. I would like to play only FLAC files with DLNA.

I was playing with the pre-gain and output voltage on RCA output of Wiim to keep the sensitivity as close to the sensitivity of the Luxman and I realized that I will not have the variable output option with SMSL / Topping with fixed 2Vrms .

So I was wondering what could be the best solution in this scenario to keep the audio quality at maximum as I am confused with the too much different information that I read about the pre-gain -
/ gain / volume control on digital domain and its effects to Audio Quality, clipping, dynamics etc.

a- Wiim pre-gain -10DB, Volume Fixed ---> optical to external DAC ---> RCA with 2vrms ---> Luxman
b- Wiim Volume Fixed ---> optical to external DAC ---> RCA with 2vrms ---> Passive attenuator ---> Luxman
c- Wiim Volume Fixed ---> optical to external DAC ---> RCA with <2vrms with Volume control ---> Luxman

or of course any other suggestions? (Except buying Wiim Ultra )

Thanks in advance.

I would go with option b above. A 20dB fixed attenuator will drop the 2V to 200mV, so suiting the Luxman perfectly, especially given that there will be some headroom there. Also, the volume control will work properly, giving you decent range. Finally, a fixed attenuator adds no distortion or noise (except thermal!) so is transparent, and by far the least trouble.

S.

 

[Multicore]

As to which option, a, b, or c, is best, I'm not sure. But it seems to me that adding the SMSL DAC is not helping. It adds complexity, has the wrong output level, more devices to futz with. And I don't expect it to improve the sound. Your WiiM Pro doesn't have SOTA bench measurements but it's still delivers wonderful high fidelity.

 

[Crimson17]

Usually we want to keep the sources hot (100%) and go from there.
Luxman does not allow that though, so you have to improvise.

To give you a really good source so to understand what it takes and the reason that a simple answer is not enough:

The Signal Chain: How do noise and distortion propagate through my system?

This article is to explore how noise and distortion change through our system, and how different components can influence the final output. A common question is “If I have DAC A, preamp B, and amp C, where should I set the volume and gain controls for the best performance?” Usually this...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Despite all that, try with what you already have in hand and make sure you implement a fail-safe scheme against any possible glitch.
It's not about "flavors", is just about noise, if you hear any then you do something wrong.

I will read it now, thanks a lot.

 

[Crimson17]

I would go with option b above. A 20dB fixed attenuator will drop the 2V to 200mV, so suiting the Luxman perfectly, especially given that there will be some headroom there. Also, the volume control will work properly, giving you decent range. Finally, a fixed attenuator adds no distortion or noise (except thermal!) so is transparent, and by far the least trouble.

S.

Thank you. I was also aiming for this despite the extra cost of the attenuator...

 

[Crimson17]

As to which option, a, b, or c, is best, I'm not sure. But it seems to me that adding the SMSL DAC is not helping. It adds complexity, has the wrong output level, more devices to futz with. And I don't expect it to improve the sound. Your WiiM Pro doesn't have SOTA bench measurements but it's still delivers wonderful high fidelity.

It performed poorly in the review on this site. I have 1Mii b06ultra which has ES9018K2M with LDAC, performs better D/A than Wiim Pro in my opinion... I was hoping there would be a lot of difference between SMSL and Wiim Pro..

 

[Multicore]

It performed poorly in the review on this site.

I know the reviews. That's what I meant when saying "doesn't have SOTA bench measurements". But to say it performs poorly ... Is that under the microscope or with your amp, speakers, room and ears?

I have 1Mii b06ultra which has ES9018K2M with LDAC, performs better D/A than Wiim Pro in my opinion... I was hoping there would be a lot of difference between SMSL and Wiim Pro..

A post I wrote a while back may be helpful here, at least in explaining my own perspective. Some poor chap was worried that the DAC in his Yamaha RN-2000A wasn't up to snuff, i.e. that SMSL and Topping had better numbers. He was going to try to bypass it....

Is my Yamaha RN-2000A underpowered?

You guys gave me some great help once in the past, hope you can do so again: I'm an American living in Taiwan, and I bought a Yamaha RN-2000A receiver. Which I like quite a bit, but I'm not using it to drive difficult speakers. My question: The power rating that I see everywhere online...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Also, for perspective, I love this chart that Amir used at AES that positions the theoretically perfect 16-bit DAC in the ranking.

Is there any music that actually requires 24 bits for replay?

Take a 24-bit track. Convert to 16 bits. Convert back to 24 bits. Use DeltaWave to compare original 24-bit track with converted track. I'm getting results such as the following: I understand that it might be useful sticking to 24 bits in the studio (for further processing), but what's the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[audio_tony]

I would go with attenuators. Rothwell do some good ones - £49 in the UK

Rothwell RCA In-Line Attenuators

Rothwell RCA In-Line Attenuators Supplied in Pairs Here's the solution to a problem from which far too many audiophiles suffer - too much gain in the system. The symptoms are easy enough to spot - the volume is plenty loud enough with the volume control set to the 9 o'clock position, too loud...

www.analogueseduction.net

There are various attenuation levels available up (down?) to the -20dB as mentioned above.

 

[Crimson17]

I know the reviews. That's what I meant when saying "doesn't have SOTA bench measurements". But to say it performs poorly ... Is that under the microscope or with your amp, speakers, room and ears?


A post I wrote a while back may be helpful here, at least in explaining my own perspective. Some poor chap was worried that the DAC in his Yamaha RN-2000A wasn't up to snuff, i.e. that SMSL and Topping had better numbers. He was going to try to bypass it....

Is my Yamaha RN-2000A underpowered?

You guys gave me some great help once in the past, hope you can do so again: I'm an American living in Taiwan, and I bought a Yamaha RN-2000A receiver. Which I like quite a bit, but I'm not using it to drive difficult speakers. My question: The power rating that I see everywhere online...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Also, for perspective, I love this chart that Amir used at AES that positions the theoretically perfect 16-bit DAC in the ranking.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...es-24-bits-for-replay.59598/post-2178681[/URL

I generally agree with you thats why, in the same manner, I am moving slowly upgrading things to see the possible positive differences. I just passed from Denon AVR-X2100W to Luxman L-3 and then to Luxman L-410 and I can easly say that I hear the very positive differences. But I am sure, if had the Yamaha I wouldn't even think of upgrading the DAC.

 

[Crimson17]

I would go with attenuators. Rothwell do some good ones - £49 in the UK

Rothwell RCA In-Line Attenuators

Rothwell RCA In-Line Attenuators Supplied in Pairs Here's the solution to a problem from which far too many audiophiles suffer - too much gain in the system. The symptoms are easy enough to spot - the volume is plenty loud enough with the volume control set to the 9 o'clock position, too loud...

www.analogueseduction.net

There are various attenuation levels available up (down?) to the -20dB as mentioned above.

Thank you. I saw them, it costs a little bit more here in Italy.

 

[Crimson17]

In the end I bought a monacor ila-1020 for the attenuators for around 30 euro. They do the job and they are adjustable but the only problem is if you slightly touch them, they sometimes bypass the internal resistor causing a very high volume. So the build quality is not good and they can be very dangerous.
For the DAC I went with Topping E30 ii (I bought them used for 70 Euro) which also does the job, turns on and off automatically etc... For now I am happy... I do not know what could be a next step for an upgrade...