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DAC types and their sonic signature

Willem

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Indeed this is the kind of nonsensical promotion of snakeoil gear that ASR is such a great antidote against. It really matters to maintain the fundamental distinction between issues of fact (such as distortion or noise levels) and legitimately differing opinions about preferences (Bach versus the Beatles or whatever).
 

BDWoody

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No need to argue...just accept that there are other perspectives.... :)
Do you think any of us here are not aware that there are people who don't understand how hearing works and have videos of themselves openly demonstrating their ignorance?

Did you think he had anything of particular value to offer, or just, 'Look! Someone hears a difference!'

Trying to figure out what you were looking for in terms of a response...other than pointing out another joker/reviewer talking out of his ass.

Lots of them... Nothing new here...
 
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raif71

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Do you think any of us here are not aware that there are people who don't understand how hearing works and have videos of themselves openly demonstrating their ignorance?

Did you think he had anything of particular value to offer, or just, 'Look! Someone hears a difference!'

Trying to figure out what you were looking for in terms of a response...other pointing out another joker/reviewer talking out of his ass.

Lots of them... Nothing new here...

I'd like to think this like the Avengers Civil War....I'd say the subjectivists on the Cap side and the objectivists on the Iron Man side. Each thinks that they are right except that they are looking from different perspectives. In the end we are all humans and that we bleed. I will agree with you nothing new but once in awhile people need to be reminded that there's another world out there so that we're not too preoccupied within our opinions. I thought this is a good thread to push forward videos such as this...keep ASR on its toes and better equip to handle any disagreements and confusion dealing with opinions that will creep in from time to time here.
 

raif71

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I'm not familiar with those movies, but I am familiar with the worth of listening tests with no controls. Subjective is fine- uncontrolled is not.
agreed...the video I forwarded is not uncontrolled, is it?
 
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I understand that the digital side of the DAC is just data and using expensive USB cables and the like isn't going to make any difference to the sound of the music, but what about the analogue side? Would it be possible to record a track and compare waveforms to see if there are actual any audible differences in DACs, ergo, their "signature", no matter how small?
 

Willem

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Welcome to the world of alternative 'facts'. It is a bit like a homeopathic submission to a scientific medical journal. I know there are nutcases out there but as a scientist I feel no need to treat them on an equal footing.
 

Eirikur

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I'd like to think this like the Avengers Civil War....I'd say the subjectivists on the Cap side and the objectivists on the Iron Man side. Each thinks that they are right except that they are looking from different perspectives. In the end we are all humans and that we bleed.
Isn't "our" purpose here to bleed less actually?
I'd like to know upfront that an object is sharp before I grab it, and a measurement might just tell me ;)
 

Willem

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Of course there will be small imperfections. But do they matter? We have two methodologies. First, doing listening tests under controlled conditions. Second, measure and compare the results with scientifically established audibility thresholds.
 
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Of course there will be small imperfections. But do they matter? We have two methodologies. First, doing listening tests under controlled conditions. Second, measure and compare the results with scientifically established audibility thresholds.

Well doesn't it matter because some people say that they can hear a difference.
If the waveforms show that there is a difference then shouldn't that satisfy your needs as a scientist or don't you feel like you should give it an equal footing?

It's easy to scoff but I'd like a definitive answer.
 

BDWoody

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I understand that the digital side of the DAC is just data and using expensive USB cables and the like isn't going to make any difference to the sound of the music, but what about the analogue side? Would it be possible to record a track and compare waveforms to see if there are actual any audible differences in DACs, ergo, their "signature", no matter how small?

That's what the measurements you see in all those graphs show...
Are you thinking there's something being missed in the measurements? If the differences measured are below a certain level, they won't be distinguishable, let alone having distinct 'signatures.'
 

BDWoody

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Well doesn't it matter because some people say that they can hear a difference.

That's the point...that's meaningless without controls.
With controls, no difference.

People can claim whatever they'd like...maybe they could actually demonstrate it with levels matched and unsighted, then they might be taken seriously.
 
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That's what the measurements you see in all those graphs show...
Are you thinking there's something being missed in the measurements? If the differences measured are below a certain level, they won't be distinguishable, let alone having distinct 'signatures.'

I must be really dense as I thought Amirs' tests used signals only, no?
 
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I
That's the point...that's meaningless without controls.
With controls, no difference.

People can claim whatever they'd like...maybe they could actually demonstrate it with levels matched and unsighted, then they might be taken seriously.

I see what you're saying, I thought that maybe running a song through an analyser may show that there are subtle differences, maybe some even audible.
 

Willem

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There are two crucial things:
listening should be under controlled conditions.
measured imperfections should be related to known audibility thresholds. Noise e.g. at -150 dB cannot be heard.
 
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There are two crucial things:
listening should be under controlled conditions.
measured imperfections should be related to known audibility thresholds. Noise e.g. at -150 dB cannot be heard.

Yes, but I think also a good first step would be to see if there's a possibility if differences in the audio waveform.

No, I don't mean noise, I mean actual differences in the audio played through the DAC.
 
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