DAC types and their sonic signature

[SIY]

agreed...the video I forwarded is not uncontrolled, is it?

No controls or substantive content whatever. Absolutely useless.

 

[solderdude]

Between every DAC there will be measurable differences.
Even between 2 DACs of the same type you can find measurable differences.
All measurements here show there are differences in the output signals of DAC's.
So MEASURABLE differences exist, that does not mean they can be heard/perceived.

However, these measured differences are very small. So small in most cases that it is NOT audible.
For measured differences to become audible they need to be quite substantial when using music.
When using test tones our hearing can actually discriminate better.
In music there is too much going on and the brain focusses on things it has learned or is programmed to find relevant/important.

The only way to properly test this using ears you need some very rigid controls. The 'listening' evaluations you read everywhere don't have any proper controls or just 1 or 2 and not all of them. This leads to erroneous findings.
The problem is that those NOT using the proper controls but thinking they do or are 'immune' or take it into account are mistaken yet they 'publish' their result as truth. The video above is an example.

Proper controls are: statistically relevant tests, level matching, time matching (latency differences), test music, listening skills/training amongst others.

There is software that can compare different recordings.

 

[Selcuk Turkoglu]

Between every DAC there will be measurable differences.
Even between 2 DACs of the same type you can find measurable differences.
All measurements here show there are differences in the output signals of DAC's.
So MEASURABLE differences exist.

However, these measured differences are very small. So small in most cases that it won't be audible.
For measured differences to become audible they need to be quite substantial when using music.

The only way to properly test this using ears you need some very rigid controls. The 'listening' evaluations you read everywhere don't have any proper controls or just 1 or 2 and not all of them. This leads to erroneous findings.
The problem is that those NOT using the proper controls but thinking they do or are 'immune' or take it into account are mistaken yet they 'publish' their result as truth. The video above is an example.

There is software that can compare different recordings.

Thank you for a clear and concise answer Solderdude.

EDIT: Following on from this, you said in most cases the differences won't be audible, so what about in other cases? Would it be possible that say, for instance, a piano waveform is different to the point of being audible, is this possible?

 

[raif71]

No controls or substantive content whatever. Absolutely useless.

I see your point yet these kind of videos will keep appearing and there will be people who appreciate such claims. I think ASR has an opportunity to educate and improve on such claims and soon these kind of videos will improve to include meaningful data and measurements. Scoffing at such videos as a 1st reaction does nothing to ease the situation and ASR may get a backlash if comments are "not controlled" . I think ASR should take first initiative to be an educator and having a bit less "we are right, you are wrong" attitude. At least this is my humble opinion.

 

[Selcuk Turkoglu]

I see your point yet these kind of videos will keep appearing and there will be people who appreciate such claims. I think ASR has an opportunity to educate and improve on such claims and soon these kind of videos will improve to include meaningful data and measurements. Scoffing at such videos as a 1st reaction does nothing to ease the situation and ASR may get a backlash if comments are "not controlled" . I think ASR should take first initiative to be an educator and having a bit less "we are right, you are wrong" attitude. At least this is my humble opinion.

Yes, I've been a long time lurker here and I find some of the comments to subjectivists here pretty shocking really. I don't think that's what ASR is all about though.

I appreciate and applaud Amirs' work here, it gives us mere mortals a window into the science behind audio, and has opened my eyes to a lot of things that are literally a waste of money, I'd have more fun flushing my money down the khazi.

 

[Willem]

That is what Amir's audio analyzer is for. It has a far cleaner signal than any audio file.

 

[Hugo9000]

I'd like to think this like the Avengers Civil War....I'd say the subjectivists on the Cap side and the objectivists on the Iron Man side. Each thinks that they are right except that they are looking from different perspectives. In the end we are all humans and that we bleed. I will agree with you nothing new but once in awhile people need to be reminded that there's another world out there so that we're not too preoccupied within our opinions. I thought this is a good thread to push forward videos such as this...keep ASR on its toes and better equip to handle any disagreements and confusion dealing with opinions that will creep in from time to time here.

I completely disagree with your characterization of Captain America and Iron Man.

Captain America is ethical and empathic and has common sense. He would never support corrupt business or marketing practices and shill "reviewing," or anything that would take advantage of the gullible.

Iron Man is a toxic narcissist. He is supposedly such a genius that he has come up with an incredible and miniaturized power source, and created the most amazing AI and computer/manufacturing system, which is capable of building and perfecting those incredible suits, yet he buys overpriced and hideously fugly cars from Audi instead of making truly exclusive automobile equivalents of his suits. And his employees, including his top assistant, are stuck using garbage Dell off-the-shelf computers from Best Buy. What a moron. Nothing objectivist about him, nor "scientific" in any meaningful sense. Just an arrogant a$$hole with enough intelligence to create a few things to boost his own already-inflated ego. He would definitely be the one with a $500k turntable and $100k interconnects to try to impress people who don't know any better or otherwise show off his wealth.

(Yes, I'm aware that the studio chose to compromise Iron Man with the most ridiculous product placement, making him look like a complete imbecile by having him use products that are completely at odds with his supposed intellectual and technical abilities. It does highlight the narcissistic side of the character as played by Downey, Jr., of course, so in that sense it is believable. He continually allows his vanity to get in the way. Oh, and in case it seems like my criticism of Iron Man buying Dell junk for his employees is inconsistent with my points, it's not. He could easily have JARVIS build mini supercomputers at great efficiency and low cost for his employees to use. Considering his supposed capabilities, they would conceivably be cheaper than Dell, yet allow maximum productivity. His narcissism won't allow such common sense, so his employees have to use trash. lol)

 

[Frank Dernie]

I see your point yet these kind of videos will keep appearing and there will be people who appreciate such claims. I think ASR has an opportunity to educate and improve on such claims and soon these kind of videos will improve to include meaningful data and measurements. Scoffing at such videos as a 1st reaction does nothing to ease the situation and ASR may get a backlash if comments are "not controlled" . I think ASR should take first initiative to be an educator and having a bit less "we are right, you are wrong" attitude. At least this is my humble opinion.

My experience has been the opposite.
On most audio forums it is assumed that differences are heard, even listening and/ or that measurements are useless since they don't show the differences "I" hear.
We get new members who ave believe this, since it is popular and common.
I can't tell you what you can hear but the only thing coming out of a DAC is a signal which has voltage, frequency and amplitude. There is nothing else. We do have instruments which can measure these parameters to levels of accuracy way beyond the capability of our ears so there can be little doubt that we can measure everything we can hear and more.
There is debate and disagreement over what level of imperfection is audible though.
I have done a level matched sound comparison between DACs where the differences I expected were not there.
OTOH several popular components have been shown to have highish levels of distortion (ie we know the musical waveform is not accurately reproduced @Selcuk Turkoglu) at probably audible levels.
DACs and headphone amps are probably the easiest pieces of kit to make audibly transparent. Headphones, speakers and maybe amplifiers are all orders of magnitude worse so worrying about any audible shortcomings in them whilst listening to them on headphones or speakers makes no sense.
ASR has been educating but a lot of enthusiasts are not keen to learn if it means finding long held beliefs are actually imagined.

 

[raif71]

My experience has been the opposite.
On most audio forums it is assumed that differences are heard, even listening and/ or that measurements are useless since they don't show the differences "I" hear.
We get new members who ave believe this, since it is popular and common.
I can't tell you what you can hear but the only thing coming out of a DAC is a signal which has voltage, frequency and amplitude. There is nothing else. We do have instruments which can measure these parameters to levels of accuracy way beyond the capability of our ears so there can be little doubt that we can measure everything we can hear and more.
There is debate and disagreement over what level of imperfection is audible though.
I have done a level matched sound comparison between DACs where the differences I expected were not there.
OTOH several popular components have been shown to have highish levels of distortion (ie we know the musical waveform is not accurately reproduced @Selcuk Turkoglu) at probably audible levels.
DACs and headphone amps are probably the easiest pieces of kit to make audibly transparent. Headphones, speakers and maybe amplifiers are all orders of magnitude worse so worrying about any audible shortcomings in them whilst listening to them on headphones or speakers makes no sense.
ASR has been educating but a lot of enthusiasts are not keen to learn if it means finding long held beliefs are actually imagined.

Yes, ASR have to keep at it and lessen the attack if some people still don't listen. It will take time, patience and discipline. In time more people will notice and appreciate what ASR is trying to do. I believe that there are improvements already.

 

[solderdude]

Thank you for a clear and concise answer Solderdude.

EDIT: Following on from this, you said in most cases the differences won't be audible, so what about in other cases? Would it be possible that say, for instance, a piano waveform is different to the point of being audible, is this possible?

Yes, of course but it would have to be VERY measurably different. The frequency response would have to deviate considerably (well over 1dB) in the audible range between 200Hz and 10kHz for that to change the tone of a piano or distortion levels would have to be > 0.1% or so.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Yes, ASR have to keep at it and lessen the attack if some people still don't listen. It will take time, patience and discipline. In time more people will notice and appreciate what ASR is trying to do. I believe that there are improvements already.

Amir doesn't attack anybody IME. He is rational and calm in explanations, even when people are being (IMHO) blatantly idiotic.
There are forum members whose patience with the same old bollox coming from a string of new members over the years is probably too short but that is not the forum's fault IMO but that of the individual.

 

[solderdude]

Consider that many of the technical folks here have been testing (with music/ears and test gears) for more than a decade.
Call that experience.
When one works with measurements and electronics one can much more easily relate these two.
One also becomes aware of typical pitfalls.

Now also take into account that the same questions/remarks are made about every few weeks and one doesn't bother to use the search function or is triggered because their loved equipment or designer is 'attacked' this can drive such individuals to merely answer in a short way.
Simply because they already explained it a 1000 times before.

 

[ernestcarl]

Isn’t it exhausting? Combatting Audiophilia Nervosa is a neverending circle of hell and redemption — like the plight of Sisyphus. It just drags on and on, week by week, no end in sight.

 

[BDWoody]

Amir doesn't attack anybody IME. He is rational and calm in explanations, even when people are being (IMHO) blatantly idiotic.
There are forum members whose patience with the same old bollox coming from a string of new members over the years is probably too short but that is not the forum's fault IMO but that of the individual.

And part of why the FAQ is a worthy project.

IME, for the most part, the level of patience shown is directly correlated with the degree of common courtesy shown. Generally people aren't getting attacked for no reason. Come in and tell us we're all stupid old men with bad hearing and ****** gear, the response will be...predictable.

Some of the most highly technically proficient members are among the most patient when it comes to giving amazingly detailed answers at the postgraduate instruction level free for the asking...it just gets diluted more and more with the same old shit.

 

[RayDunzl]

Would it be possible that say, for instance, a piano waveform is different to the point of being audible, is this possible?

Moving your head three inches will make a greater difference in the waveform presented to your ears by speakers than that presented by by different pieces of similarly competent electronics.

Seven measurements taken across the sofa:

red - center
orange - left and more left
green - right and more right

 

[Eirikur]

Moving your head three inches will make a greater difference in the waveform presented to your ears by speakers than that presented by by different pieces of similarly competent electronics.

Seven measurements taken across the sofa:

red - center
orange - left and more left
green - right and more right


View attachment 39743

That is one crappy sofa you have there; inter-seat and intra-seat imbalance, I don't know what to say really!

 

[RayDunzl]

That is one crappy sofa you have there - inter-seat and intra-seat imbalance, I don't know what to say really!

I know, it's an old hand-me-down. It was manufactured during the Golden Age of Analog.

It's still a good nap platform, though.

 

[KxDx]

Are you thinking there's something being missed in the measurements?

Yes! The QUANTUMS!!!!!

https://bybeetech.com/products/

Bybee Quantum Purifiers
These devices work on the quantum mechanical level to eliminate sub-audible noise—i.e., noise unmeasurable by typical test-bench instruments. The results are previously unattainable resolution and beauty in home audio and video.

 

[Willem]

 

[KxDx]

Jokes aside, I am curious to try a R2R and a tube DAC at some point. I am open to the possibility I might enjoy the "warmth" of their top-end distortion. You never know...