• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

DAC talking, starts with ESS chips

yummy

Active Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2017
Messages
142
Likes
188
I've skipped talking about DAC for a year or two, just too tired, there's no totally satisfied one yet,

Basically, what is "pass" (as in bottom line) is that a DAC that reaches the limit specs of the chip. This is the basic requirement, but many fails.

what I mention are all desktop version, not mobile ones, mobile as in Q2M etc.

besides DAC, there's also preamp (not mic preamp) (and other parts), which is another page
Preamp, the key is noise, and attenuation, should be 0db gain, the THX789 looks really great but they released the actual measurements long after stop receiving orders, I didn't jump in since they didn't put their measurements out in the first place (which are really great), the not ok part that needs to deal with it's the pot, those kinds of (those most common) pots are just not good enough.
Transformer-type passive preamps are great for noise, but trannies, the distortion are pretty high


well, let's begin
the second generation ASRC is auditionally far better than the first gen (ES9008/18)
second generation ASRC is still ASRC

ES9028 and 9038PRO having the same digital parts, while 38PRO with high current capacity, so 9038PRO has better analog performance.

officially only ES9018mobile, 28, 38PRO could be turn off the ASRC

and most of most of ESS DACs are enabling ASRC, without us controlling. toying

I tried to search some DAC, Gustard X20PRO, X22, SMSL D1, Matrix X-SABRE Pro (the Matrix specs comes close to the demo board's, but still not enough) all having option to turn off ASRC, but their analog PLL are bad, or having no PLL at all

only two companies that designs good PLL, Prism and Lynx, both pro... PLL requires VCO or VCXO which is more expensive.

Pro company, problem is they never use latest chips, or even former-latest chips, but good pros always reach the chip specs, plus excellent layouts, crosstalk better than 110db at 20k, make the chips completely well-bloom (that's bottom line, for ESS, you gotta achieve this while the ASRC is off)

Pro and not-Pro are usually two different worlds, but many people crossover, nothing to surprise with (some Pro turned themselves into non-Pro, DCS, which is an excellent company, although high price, but still miles away better than those mouth pieces, mouth piece = my stuff is mouth-fy-ly good, truth = couldn't design near-OK stuff in reality)

SPL belongs to low-tier pro (pro in fake), should be avoided, and Antelope clocks... well, get used Agilent instead of Antelope, clocks are tiring, even more tiring than DAC topics
 
Last edited:

garbulky

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 14, 2018
Messages
1,510
Likes
827
Hi, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. From the extent I am reading, it sounds like overall you are not happy with the quality you hear from DACs.
 

mi-fu

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 7, 2018
Messages
584
Likes
661
Location
New York
Thanks for the insights. With these said constraints and limitations, what are your picks for the best DACs available under $1000?
 

bennetng

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 15, 2017
Messages
1,634
Likes
1,692
So you are of the opinion that those ESS chips should be paired with high quality VCO or VCXO and avoid ASRC to achieve best performance. Do you have samples available for Amir to measure them? Or give an exact model below $2000 too see if Amir or someone else will try it or not (too expensive is meaningless since the competition also involves price).

While I also like to read theories, a valid proof in terms of measurement is much more important.
 

Krunok

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Messages
4,600
Likes
3,065
Location
Zg, Cro
This is indeed it.

But wouldn't that require that all other components on the analoge signal path from the DAC chip to the output connectors that do I/U conversion, filtering and output buffering do the job without influencing the signal at all? :D
 

gvl

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 16, 2018
Messages
3,425
Likes
3,981
Location
SoCal
So you are of the opinion that those ESS chips should be paired with high quality VCO or VCXO and avoid ASRC to achieve best performance. Do you have samples available for Amir to measure them? Or give an exact model below $2000 too see if Amir or someone else will try it or not (too expensive is meaningless since the competition also involves price).

While I also like to read theories, a valid proof in terms of measurement is much more important.

Matrix X-Sabre Pro can run in sync and async modes. The challenge is how to get that super stable XO clock in sync mode to the DAC. It can do I2S with MCLK, but it is possible the length of the I2S connector and indroduced jitter will cancel out any benefits of the external stable clock. Probably comparing sync vs. async using the async USB input is good enough to get an idea of the differences.
 
OP
Y

yummy

Active Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2017
Messages
142
Likes
188
USB input doesn't need PLL off course, acting as own clock source. PLL for spdif/AES

everyone on this forums talking about ESS, very excited and addicted, actually I've been using AKM for years, and some others.

will spend time to talk about AKM, Crystal etc

es9018 was based on AD1955, ess picked the key 1955 guy from ADI with used unknown method.

almost every pro gears using AKM chips around 10 years ago
if you wanna try it, there're ton of choices, almost every one of them is identical, similar specs, similar chips, similar functions
a cheap reliable pro ADDA is better than those toys with newer chips (most of them are DIY, actual measurements will drop you jaws)

akm
ak4995 worse THD+N and SNR, ak4490 beats it on paper
truth is that AK4995 is 5 bit D-Sigma (stereo mode, mono mode becomes 6 bit) /ess 6 bit (mono mode means 8 in 1 makes it 9bit)
ak4990 only 1 bit
and list price of ak4490 is a lot cheaper

this is special case, and then ak4497 comes out (all in one version), but there's not a single well-made out there, and pro is not gonna use ak4497 in any sense (newer chips are truly greater, but you gonna wait a lot of time, years waiting, just tired of this activity)

Crystal released cs43198 (wanna on par with akm), only in BGA (it's called QFN), that's bad (cs4398 has great treble, that's all, I'm sure cs43198 improves a lot but BGA, you know...)

(wm8741, ad1955 could be ignore in these days)


PCM197x, for some reason I've never auditioned this chip(s), only two main choice seems like, a. avid HD IO and hd moni but they have no standalone mode have to connect to Pro Tools cards
(avid is the one and only pro that picks PCM179x)
although the cards supports Wins man that's expensive (card alone)
hd moni has quasi-standalone mode but need to set the whole thing with computer that installs Pro Tools cards.

b. ASUS Essence One/stu, well, not bad on paper at all, could say excellent for making the chip "measuring as good as it gets", but the series labeled "for beginners", finally I lost interests since no one lends me one (didn't find anyone that owns it)

PCM1704, I've also used this for three years
it's now sitting in attic for nearly two years.

about r2r, r2r is dead, deadly dead, the only way to revive it is semi releases a new chip, a next level pcm1704 with latest IC magic (it would be fking mind blowing, I'll ditch all D-sigma), but it's not gonna happen in us life.
discrete r2r has no future, you can't compete with modern semi industry.

I've seen people that totally gave on digital and went back to vinyl, my first thought of listening vinyl was: fuller, smoother, it just sounded this good (with SNR 60 - 80 db)
second thought: vinyl era is gone, it ain't 80s no more, I can't wait for days to get the vinyl delivered (even if they are free)
 
Last edited:

gvl

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 16, 2018
Messages
3,425
Likes
3,981
Location
SoCal
discrete r2r has no future, you can't compete with modern semi industry.

Discrete r2r doesn't have to compete with the industry as it has nothing to offer.
 

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,399
USB input doesn't need PLL off course, acting as own clock source. PLL for spdif/AES

everyone on this forums talking about ESS, very excited and addicted, actually I've been using AKM for years, and some others.

will spend time to talk about AKM, Crystal etc

es9018 was based on AD1955, ess picked the key 1955 guy from ADI with used unknown method.

almost every pro gears using AKM chips around 10 years ago
if you wanna try it, there're ton of choices, almost every one of them is identical, similar specs, similar chips, similar functions
a cheap reliable pro ADDA is better than those toys with newer chips (most of them are DIY, actual measurements will drop you jaws)

akm
ak4995 worse THD+N and SNR, ak4490 beats it on paper
truth is that AK4995 is 5 bit D-Sigma (stereo mode, mono mode becomes 6 bit) /ess 6 bit (mono mode means 8 in 1 makes it 9bit)
ak4990 only 1 bit
and list price of ak4490 is a lot cheaper

this is special case, and then ak4497 comes out (all in one version), but there's not a single well-made out there, and pro is not gonna use ak4497 in any sense (newer chips are truly greater, but you gonna wait a lot of time, years waiting, just tired of this activity)

Crystal released cs43198 (wanna on par with akm), only in BGA (it's called QFN), that's bad (cs4398 has great treble, that's all, I'm sure cs43198 improves a lot but BGA, you know...)

(wm8741, ad1955 could be ignore in these days)


PCM197x, for some reason I've never auditioned this chip(s), only two main choice seems like, a. avid HD IO and hd moni but they have no standalone mode have to connect to Pro Tools cards
(avid is the one and only pro that picks PCM179x)
although the cards supports Wins man that's expensive (card alone)
hd moni has quasi-standalone mode but need to set the whole thing with computer that installs Pro Tools cards.

b. ASUS Essence One/stu, well, not bad on paper at all, could say excellent for making the chip "measuring as good as it gets", but the series labeled "for beginners", finally I lost interests since no one lends me one (didn't find anyone that owns it)

PCM1704, I've also used this for three years
it's now sitting in attic for nearly two years.

about r2r, r2r is dead, deadly dead, the only way to revive it is semi releases a new chip, a next level pcm1704 with latest IC magic (it would be fking mind blowing, I'll ditch all D-sigma), but it's not gonna happen in us life.
discrete r2r has no future, you can't compete with modern semi industry.

I've seen people that totally gave on digital and went back to vinyl, my first thought of listening vinyl was: fuller, smoother, it just sound this good (with SNR 60 - 80 db)
second thought: vinyl era is gone, it ain't 80s no more, I can't wait for days to get the vinyl delivered (even if they are free)

I think that vinyl sound that you prefer is just down to the particular spectra of distortion. I can relate, because I'm not always in the mood for the transparency and (sometimes less exciting) neutrality that a quality digital-based system provides.

A friend and I are beginning to look at DSP as a way of introducing some distortions to the signal running through an otherwise transparent DAC.

The aim is to try to build a system with some of the subjective characteristics of nice SET amplification and vinyl, although I'm not sure how it'll turn out (he's the electrical engineer/programmer btw, I'm just designing the speakers).

But really, isn't the DAC problem solved? We have a number of affordable DACs on the market that are transparent by any objective measure.
 

Jimster480

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
Messages
2,880
Likes
2,032
Location
Tampa Bay
I think that vinyl sound that you prefer is just down to the particular spectra of distortion. I can relate, because I'm not always in the mood for the transparency and (sometimes less exciting) neutrality that a quality digital-based system provides.

A friend and I are beginning to look at DSP as a way of introducing some distortions to the signal running through an otherwise transparent DAC.

The aim is to try to build a system with some of the subjective characteristics of nice SET amplification and vinyl, although I'm not sure how it'll turn out (he's the electrical engineer/programmer btw, I'm just designing the speakers).

But really, isn't the DAC problem solved? We have a number of affordable DACs on the market that are transparent by any objective measure.
Yes That's what I am thinking.... that with so many DAC's available that are audibly transparent I think the issues now are more due to design and selection of components.
But yes probably newer DAC chips are better but I think the lack of knowledge of chip layout and overall product design means that most companies wait for published layouts to be completed.
 

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,459
Location
Australia
I think that vinyl sound that you prefer is just down to the particular spectra of distortion. I can relate, because I'm not always in the mood for the transparency and (sometimes less exciting) neutrality that a quality digital-based system provides.

A friend and I are beginning to look at DSP as a way of introducing some distortions to the signal running through an otherwise transparent DAC.

The aim is to try to build a system with some of the subjective characteristics of nice SET amplification and vinyl, although I'm not sure how it'll turn out (he's the electrical engineer/programmer btw, I'm just designing the speakers).

But really, isn't the DAC problem solved? We have a number of affordable DACs on the market that are transparent by any objective measure.

Vinyl emulation(free): https://www.izotope.com/en/products/create-and-design/vinyl.html :facepalm:

Seriously, quite a task. https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/analogue-warmth

I know that digital analogue-emulation is used in recording e.g. tape recorder and microphone characteristics.
 
Last edited:

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,399
Vinyl emulation(free): https://www.izotope.com/en/products/create-and-design/vinyl.html :facepalm:

Seriously, quite a task. https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/analogue-warmth

I know that digital analogue-emulation is used in recording e.g. tape recorder and microphone characteristics.

Ha, exactly :)

There are literally thousands of VST plugins available to engineers that are designed to emulate vinyl and tubes. I've never found any I think work particularly well, but haven't tried a lot.

But I'm sure we've all probably heard many of these at work in recordings without knowing it...
 

Krunok

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Messages
4,600
Likes
3,065
Location
Zg, Cro
A friend and I are beginning to look at DSP as a way of introducing some distortions to the signal running through an otherwise transparent DAC.

So we can soon expect to have "sound types" in DACs, like "tube sound", "vynil sound"? Not a bad idea actually.. :D
 

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,399
So we can soon expect to have "sound types" in DACs, like "tube sound", "vynil sound"? Not a bad idea actually.. :D

Assuming this isn't sarcastic haha ;) Will keep you posted..
 

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,399
But yes, what we're aiming for is fundamentally no different to what a tube emulator for use with a DAW does. Just looking for a different flavour, as those VST emulators tend to be of either guitar amps or vinyl or tape reel or various other vintage gear - all a bit too low-hi compared to what I'm after..
 
Top Bottom