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DAC straight to amp

JSmith

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Otherwise I find longer listening sessions more useful.
Sure, one can listen as long as they want to when comparing devices in a non-sighted comparison... the key is not knowing which is which, subject to auditory memory limitations of course. Having a pre-conceived notion doesn't invalidate the test, as that "bias" is removed by comparing the sources blind. It's not like one won't hear a difference (if there is one to be heard) simply because they don't "believe" and vice versa.


JSmith
 
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MCH

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Hi all, so for years I've used Jriver to drive a dac connected to a power amp but I'm often told that I'd get better results using a preamp. To me it seems the less stuff in the chain, the clearer - in theory, the sound. If I dont need any additional gain of a pre or have no need for more inputs, is there any reason a dac to a preamp then power amp might be a better option?
I learned here that a good analogue volume control of a preamp can be beneficial vs the digital volume control of the dac in the unlikely case that you have noise issues. It is easy to understand: the analogue attenuation affects both signal and noise while the digital attenuates only signal keeping the same noise floor.
I understood as well that all this is normally not an issue with a decent dac. Maybe that's why nobody mentioned this so far?
 

pma

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Hi all, so for years I've used Jriver to drive a dac connected to a power amp but I'm often told that I'd get better results using a preamp. To me it seems the less stuff in the chain, the clearer - in theory, the sound. If I dont need any additional gain of a pre or have no need for more inputs, is there any reason a dac to a preamp then power amp might be a better option?

Talking about good modern DACs - there is almost no reason to use a preamp, though we could speculate on possibly better S/N with analog preamp or loss of resolution of digital volume control at very low output level.

There is one, purely technical and safety reason: when the DAC is connected directly to the power amplifier, it may happen that due to SW bug or malfunction or if the digital volume is set to 100% just by mistake (when changing the DAC, e.g.) the DAC output may jump to full output level and it may destroy the speakers, especially tweeters. If you have an analog preamp or passive volume control between the DAC and the power amp and the volume knob is set to a normal listening level, such scenario cannot happen.
 

Kijanki

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However we were talking about if a DAC can serve as a preamp technically.
I believe the question was different. OP asked "is there any reason a dac to a preamp then power amp might be a better option?"
I stated that "better" is relative. For me better means more accurate, but for others can be "warmer sounding".
 

Kijanki

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It's not like one won't hear a difference (if there is one to be heard) simply because they don't "believe" and vice versa.
I believe that when the difference is small person who believes there should be no difference at all won't hear it. It is the same as placebo effect other way around. Even blind test is biased. You compare two speakers - one performing better in lively room while the other performs better in well damped room. What room do you use for testing? Isn't that a bias?
 

JSmith

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I believe that when the difference is small person who believes there should be no difference at all won't hear it.
Well that is incorrect if trained to listen as per one of my previous posts.
Even blind test is biased.
The whole point of the test is to remove bias including controls to ensure it. If you're willing to put your bias aside and learn about this, you could start with these videos;


JSmith
 

beefkabob

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Hi all, so for years I've used Jriver to drive a dac connected to a power amp but I'm often told that I'd get better results using a preamp. To me it seems the less stuff in the chain, the clearer - in theory, the sound. If I dont need any additional gain of a pre or have no need for more inputs, is there any reason a dac to a preamp then power amp might be a better option?
If you ever have a power amp that performs best in a low-gain mode and can accept strong signals, then you will be well-served by a pre-amp. Boost that weak 2v up to 9v or whatever you need. Also a preamp can have many outputs to deal with whatever fancy amp you end up getting.

But would the sound difference be noticeable? I don't know.
 

Kijanki

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There is one, purely technical and safety reason: when the DAC is connected directly to the power amplifier, it may happen that due to SW bug or malfunction or if the digital volume is set to 100% just by mistake (when changing the DAC, e.g.) the DAC output may jump to full output level and it may destroy the speakers, especially tweeters. If you have an analog preamp or passive volume control between the DAC and the power amp and the volume knob is set to a normal listening level, such scenario cannot happen.
It concerned me a bit with my DAC3, but digital volume control still has knob to adjust it with visible position marker. Software bug is always possible, but the same applies to any preamp (or integrated) with remote control - there is likely a tiny micro in the control and/or in the preamp. I'm never 100% certain that my computer/server doesn't send music, but I always turn off everything when plugging or unplugging.
 

Holmz

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I believe the question was different. OP asked "is there any reason a dac to a preamp then power amp might be a better option?"
I stated that "better" is relative. For me better means more accurate, but for others can be "warmer sounding".

You can believe what ever you want.
(And leave some lettuce out Saturday night as well.)

I gave you a fairly well written response… did you take any time to read it?
(Or were you just awaiting a reason to post again?)



However we were talking about if a DAC can serve as a preamp technically.
So we have:
1) Output impedance of the pre
2) Input impedance of the amp
3) Whether the volume is a method of chucking out bits (bit depth) on the least significant digit end.

Technically:
- If #3 is happening, then run a preamp.
- If #1 is abnormally high and #2 is abnormally low, then run a preamp.

Subjectively:
- If likes a preamp, then run a preamp.
- If one wants to spice up the sound, then run a distorting preamp.

There are finite technical reasons, and the warmness of sound is a Goldilocks reason, which is not overly technical.
You might have said run it into a DSP/EQ if you want to change the sound.

The other reasons have to do with impedances and bit depth.

Or is it a troll fest?
 
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freemansteve

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Does it not depend on the DAC having a volume control*? If it does, just try it direct to your power amp. I agree with "less is more" as a maxim!

*And a knob is safer than a remote-only, in terms of quickly checking that you're not about to blast your speakers.
 
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svtcontour

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The Gustard has 120 ohms output impedance for RCA and 350 ohms for XLR. Should be fine if cables are kept reasonably short. Certainly 2 meters or less is perfectly fine. The input impedance on your amp is 40 kohm so not a problem.

The Ares II however has 1250 ohms output impedance on RCA and 2500 ohms output impedance on XLR. You probably are okay here to 2 meters, but ideally want it less or perhaps this is one that might benefit slightly from a preamp. I'd keep it to no more than 2 meters on the interconnects.

Thank you my friend! I tend to use pretty short interconnects so hopefully that works out. I'm running the blue jean stuff at 1 meter long and I also looked at the input impedence of the amp I use and its 40K Ohms. So far though I do like what I hear from them. I prefer the denafrips slightly but I cant put my finger on why.
 

SIY

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I prefer the denafrips slightly but I cant put my finger on why.
Your human brain.

But illusion aside, there is no reason whatsoever from a performance standpoint to use a preamp in this situation- even the vague "drive" stuff is meaningless since preamps and power amps these days tend to have pretty similar input impedances unless "designed" by someone stupid (a rarity outside of fashion audio). DAC volume control doesn't lose bits at any level approaching audible.
 
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svtcontour

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Does it not depend on the DAC having a volume control*? If it does, just try it direct to your power amp. I agree with "less is more" as a maxim!

*And a knob is safer than a remote-only, in terms of quickly checking that you're not about to blast your speakers.
Hah very good point. I use pro amps typically so I use the level pots to set my max desired volume that I'd want to listen to and then I use the JRiver built in volume with a remote to adjust :) Better safe than sorry
 

Lambda

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DAC strait to the amp is fine!

But it depends in amplifier sensitivity. If your DAC output voltages is higher then your AMPs sensitivity you can never listen at 100% volume and your waiting some of the DACs potential.

If on the other hand DACs output is way lower then your waiting some AMP power.

But if it gets loud enough and normal listening level is is not at a to low setting on the dac/ in the software your fine!

but if for example you NEVER turn the DAC/player volume over -15dB or so you might want to buy some passive attenuator to get you closes to the ideal range
1649849176329.png
 
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svtcontour

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DAC strait to the amp is fine!

But it depends in amplifier sensitivity. If your DAC output voltages is higher then your AMPs sensitivity you can never listen at 100% volume and your waiting some of the DACs potential.

If on the other hand DACs output is way lower then your waiting some AMP power.

But if it gets loud enough and normal listening level is is not at a to low setting on the dac/ in the software your fine!

but if for example you NEVER turn the DAC/player volume over -15dB or so you might want to buy some passive attenuator to get you closes to the ideal range
View attachment 199631
Oh wow good idea - I never knew something like this existed. I live under a rock :) LOL. So I can use this for when I want to toss my Hafler amp direct which has no level adjustments. With that amp I had to have the volume quite a lot lower in Jriver and I'm always paranoid that if the sw glitches, I'm feeding a ton of power into some already sensitive speakers and make myself deaf or give myself a heart attack LOL
 

Neddy

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35 posts and nothing about the vulnerability of gain runaway (100% by 'accident') with JR on Win?
JR on Win has several times (usually following JR upgrades, but sometimes after Win changes) Gone FF unexpectedly on me.
I will NOT trust that combo to be reliably gain limited except for with external (preamp) devices, if only to keep my super tweeters in one piece.
I'm (for now) changing from AES to Analog output on my OktoDAC in order to give me (remote) gain/mute control in case it's needed in an emergency.
Even IF you have things set for things to be safe at 100%, it can still scare the heck out of you :)
(I have also tried to optimize all my gain stages for best performance PLUS trying to avoid damage at 100% but seems like an endless circle.)
All the other arguments are what they are.
 
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svtcontour

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35 posts and nothing about the vulnerability of gain runaway (100% by 'accident') with JR on Win?
JR on Win has several times (usually following JR upgrades, but sometimes after Win changes) Gone FF unexpectedly on me.
I will NOT trust that combo to be reliably gain limited except for with external (preamp) devices, if only to keep my super tweeters in one piece.
I'm (for now) changing from AES to Analog output on my OktoDAC in order to give me (remote) gain/mute control in case it's needed in an emergency.
Even IF you have things set for things to be safe at 100%, it can still scare the heck out of you :)
(I have also tried to optimize all my gain stages for best performance PLUS trying to avoid damage at 100% but seems like an endless circle.)
All the other arguments are what they are.
Ya that scares the hell out of me and my solution so far has been just using pro amps with level controls so I use them to set as my max volume in case JRiver does do anything weird!
 

AnalogSteph

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This is why preamp-grade DACs typically come with a volume control and display. There's a fair amount of choice from about $350 up.

If you have a DAC that's good enough (dynamic range, muting) but lacking a volume control, you can also stick with shared mode playback and OS/driver-level volume control. No need to rely on the player either way.
 

Darkscience

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I use to run my RME DAC straight into the AHB2. Benchmark told me running their pre-amp in between would improve the sound. I forgot the technical stuff they told me, (it was a while ago, maybe something to do with the volume control? and of course the output impedance stuff), and I did not really believe it, I was mostly after more connections and wanted to take advantage of the nice headphone amplifier. My subjective conclusion is that the sound is better, my testing involved me listening to the old set up, hooking up the new setup and never looking back =), therefore my opinion is nothing more than that.

I can say with 100% certainty though that I enjoy my system a lot more after the change. The components seem to match better, I have remote control that turns on and off the pre-amp and the power amp in one.

My advice, I would not look to adding a pre-amp to try to make the sound better. I personally do not believe it will improve your sound unless your getting something like what I have where the components where designed to work together. (I do believe there is already a thread on here where the Benchmark Pre-amp was discussed with input from John on why it will improve the sound). I do believe it is worth trying and just see what you think. But if it is purely for improving the sound, try something else like room improvements first etc.

PS I just ordered the Benchmark DAC to complete my system, and they again claim I will hear some improvement, again I do not believe it, but they are one of the better companies that actually measure their devices and again, they went into the technical stuff about why, but I just do not understand, (something about the way they decode and avoid spikes idk??), I just know I will have a complete system that all works beautifully together.

Glad I couldn't help!
 

pLudio

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I use to run my RME DAC straight into the AHB2. Benchmark told me running their pre-amp in between would improve the sound. I forgot the technical stuff they told me,
Their pre-amp's "Maximum Input and Output Voltage, 20 Vrms (+28 dBu)" in combination with Low Gain set on the AHB2?
 
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