DAC + power amp vs receiver at ~500$

[YoniV]

Hi,
We'll be buying a Tannoy XT 6F for the living room and now looking for the rest of the chain.
We don't need full fledged home theater capabilities nor phono; perhaps a sub down the road if we'll feel the 38Hz @ -6db to be on the thin side.

I've been reading here for some time now, and this is what I've gathered so far (from an objective performance perspective):
- DACs seem to be pretty much a solved problem. 200$ can seal the deal with a Topping D50s, which will give all the utility we need with practically flawless performance both in terms of human hearing capabilities and compared to performance limits of other components in the chain.
- Headphone amps are also pretty much done: 100$ on the JDS Labs Atom fitted with something like the D50, and performance is strictly limited to HP capabilities.

From this, I was hoping that at around 300$ one can find an essentially flawless power amp and forget about "the chain" for all eternity.
But then I saw how relatively poor typical power amps/AVRs measure here and was a bit let down.
Sure, I can drop 3K on the Ahb2 or 1K on the NC400 (and possibly the Purifi 1ET400A at the same ballpark), but that's way above my budget, which would've otherwise been spent on a better speaker.

Are there really no good (objective) budget performers out there? And if 300$ guarantees mediocre performance, would it be worth dropping the DAC+amp concept and just go for a receiver?

More concrete questions:
1. For the Tannoy's specs (Z = 8ohm, sensitivity = 90db, continuous power = 75W peak RMS, peak power handling = 300W), what should I look for in an amp? Specifically, will the Onkyo A-9110 integrated be able to suitably drive the Tannoys?
2. What good candidates are there within this budget? (and is it at all realistic?) Not afraid of DIY if this can help.

Cheers!
Johnathan

 

[BDWoody]

Hi,
We'll be buying a Tannoy XT 6F for the living room and now looking for the rest of the chain.
We don't need full fledged home theater capabilities nor phono; perhaps a sub down the road if we'll feel the 38Hz @ -6db to be on the thin side.

I've been reading here for some time now, and this is what I've gathered so far (from an objective performance perspective):
- DACs seem to be pretty much a solved problem. 200$ can seal the deal with a Topping D50s, which will give all the utility we need with practically flawless performance both in terms of human hearing capabilities and compared to performance limits of other components in the chain.
- Headphone amps are also pretty much done: 100$ on the JDS Labs Atom fitted with something like the D50, and performance is strictly limited to HP capabilities.

From this, I was hoping that at around 300$ one can find an essentially flawless power amp and forget about "the chain" for all eternity.
But then I saw how relatively poor typical power amps/AVRs measure here and was a bit let down.
Sure, I can drop 3K on the Ahb2 or 1K on the NC400 (and possibly the Purifi 1ET400A at the same ballpark), but that's way above my budget, which would've otherwise been spent on a better speaker.

Are there really no good (objective) budget performers out there? And if 300$ guarantees mediocre performance, would it be worth dropping the DAC+amp concept and just go for a receiver?

More concrete questions:
1. For the Tannoy's specs (Z = 8ohm, sensitivity = 90db, continuous power = 75W peak RMS, peak power handling = 300W), what should I look for in an amp? Specifically, will the Onkyo A-9110 integrated be able to suitably drive the Tannoys?
2. What good candidates are there within this budget? (and is it at all realistic?) Not afraid of DIY if this can help.

Cheers!
Johnathan

Are you open to buying used amps? That's where I'd be looking? Some of the older Rotel, Adcom, etc are very good amps, and can be had for cheap. They also trend to hold value at this point, so it'll be worth what you bought it for in a few years when new stuff is priced more attractively.

 

[BillG]

If you'd like a nice integrated, that's probably just a step below Hypex modules but still good as it's using an ICEpower one instead, I'd suggest this even though it's slightly over your budget at $600 USD - just attach a streamer to its digital inputs and go:

http://www.smsl-audio.com/productshow.asp?id=140

P.S. If you want to save some money on it, here's a used one at $480 USD:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33026934280.html

 

[YoniV]

Oh, thanks, I forgot to mention that used is definitely an option for me.

 

[HammerSandwich]

The Audiophonics NC122MP looks like a good bet for a new amp. It's slightly over your budget with tax/shipping, but what else will come close to the fidelity at that price? They offer an RCA-in model, but go with the balanced inputs & adapters. Which that tiny amp requires, because they're actually mini-XLRs. Seems like a reasonable power level for the "90dB" Tannoys, too.

Where do you live? You use "$" but put it after the digits, so...

I ask, because location rules when you're looking for a deal on used gear. Older Adcoms, as mentioned above, are strong value. They don't have much in the way of protection, however. Just power-rail fuses, IIRC. Some of the older Parasounds offer reasonable performance for the dollar, but I'm not sure on longevity/servicing.

The Crestron CNAMPX series is worth an Ebay search. These are 60W ATI amps, plus a Crestron control board you'll need to bypass. The 2x60 model goes for around $100, but keep an eye out for a 12x60 "local pickup only." The 12x is a fully modular build with 6x stereo boards & 2x beefy transformers. (Think AT6012, as used by Linkwitz before he went Ncore.) It's also around 80 pounds, so you can get a steal when a seller who doesn't want to ship gets desperate to sell. The control-board bypass takes a few minutes, and you can simply unplug amp boards to reduce power consumption. If you're okay with 60W, that's a lot of spare parts for <$20/channel. And if you buy a DAC with differential output, you can bridge stereo boards to 200+W mono with only a cable. Last note: the 12x listed for $2800 new. Unbelievable value used!

 

[VintageFlanker]

The Audiophonics NC122MP looks like a good bet for a new amp. It's slightly over your budget with tax/shipping, but what else will come close to the fidelity at that price? They offer an RCA-in model, but go with the balanced inputs & adapters. Which that tiny amp requires, because they're actually mini-XLRs. Seems like a reasonable power level for the "90dB" Tannoys, too.

Having owned one, I give another vote for the PA-S125NC. But RCA version in that case, to suit with the D50s. As you said, the Mini XLR version requires adapters, and not easy to find ones: XLR female to Mini-XLR...also female. So that solution will getting quite more expensive. I know Hypex recommend balanced connection, but I guarantee that there is nothing wrong sound-wise with the PA-S125NC using RCA.

 

[BDWoody]

Oh, thanks, I forgot to mention that used is definitely an option for me.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/323915520310

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/143268345480

 

[HammerSandwich]

Having owned one, I give another vote for the PA-S125NC. But RCA version in that case, to suit with the D50s. As you said, the Mini XLR version requires adapters, and not easy to find ones: XLR female to Mini-XLR...also female. So that solution will getting quite more expensive.

Redco will build a custom XLR->mini cable for ~$15.

I know Hypex recommend balanced connection, but I guarantee that there is nothing wrong sound-wise with the PA-S125NC using RCA.

I believe it!

 

[YoniV]

Where do you live? You use "$" but put it after the digits, so...

Israel, which makes online purchases slightly more restrictive at times, but most of the recommendations thus far are available internationally so no problem.

Thanks!

 

[YoniV]

Having owned one, I give another vote for the PA-S125NC. But RCA version in that case, to suit with the D50s. As you said, the Mini XLR version requires adapters, and not easy to find ones: XLR female to Mini-XLR...also female. So that solution will getting quite more expensive. I know Hypex recommend balanced connection, but I guarantee that there is nothing wrong sound-wise with the PA-S125NC using RCA.

Looking at the data sheet, it reads that the 2x75W rating is at 1kHz, while for 20Hz-20kHz they are rated as 2x37W.
Also, one (only) out of the 10 reviewers in their website expressed his feeling of lack of power for larger speakers.

May I ask what speakers did you use it with, and how do they compare to the Tannoys in terms of power requirements?
I wonder whether this amp is strong enough to handle anything slightly more remanding than the Tannoys, or as soon as we'd like to replace them, the amp will have to go as well, in which case this buy is perhaps not very versatile.

What do you think?

 

[VintageFlanker]

Also, one (only) out of the 10 reviewers in their website expressed his feeling of lack of power for larger speakers.

Unfortunately, most customers reviews on Audiophonics have to be taken with a grain of salt.(Mine is the one from Louis M, by the way) Most speaking about how they heard their cable before and after burn-in, some "Fruity medium", "onctuous bass" etc... (true story). Nothing relevant, most of the time.

May I ask what speakers did you use it with, and how do they compare to the Tannoys in terms of power requirements?

Monitor Audio Silver 10s and Focal Aria 906s. The bigger MA are surprisingly less power hungry, while 5 times bigger, probably because of the 4ohms impedence. I have great experience with both.
Your XT6F are 8ohms/90db speakers, which is very common specs for such floorstandings.
The PA-S125NC is more than enough, even for loud levels, IMHO.

the amp will have to go as well, in which case this buy is perhaps not very versatile.

From this, I was hoping that at around 300$ one can find an essentially flawless power amp and forget about "the chain" for all eternity.

If I may, your initial wish is not very realistic at the first place. The PA-S125NC is an exceptional amp for the price, you may find more powerful ones, but not cleaner. That doesn't mean it has to be your end-game.

 

[HammerSandwich]

Looking at the data sheet, it reads that the 2x75W rating is at 1kHz, while for 20Hz-20kHz they are rated as 2x37W.

Look at the actual Hypex datasheet. What the "up to half power" line means is that distortion stays >95dB below the signal until that level, not that the amp can't produce more power.

Hypex has performance graphs in section 8. Into 8Ω, THD is very low until roughly 37W, begins climbing but remains under 0.002% until 50W, at which point the bass pushes into clipping first. But you'll be at ~107dB per speaker at that point, so good luck hearing even 0.1% THD. Into 4Ω, the distortion curve doesn't hit its knee until >100W at all frequencies, so the amp's a respectable voltage source.

Real world, this means the NC122 should give clean, 107dB peaks, assuming the speaker specs are accurate.

What will it do with different speakers? How long is a piece of string? It will drive them to 15+dB above their 2.8V SPL, unless they have a pathological load. Remember that big speakers should be more efficient than smaller ones and that doubling your amp's wattage buys only 3dB.

 

[YoniV]

If I may, your initial wish is not very realistic at the first place. The PA-S125NC is an exceptional amp for the price, you may find more powerful ones, but not cleaner. That doesn't mean it has to be your end-game.

Thank you, that's a very reasonable statement, my budget was set as a zeroth-order guess based on reading mostly on headphones.
Is there justification to loosening the budget limit (assuming we don't need earth-shaking volume)? What should I expect to gain from investing beyond the S125NC?
I saw from your review that you bought 2xM250NC. How do you compare the two models?

@HammerSandwich
Thanks for the reference and explanation, that was a very interesting read! Summarized data sheets certainly don't show the whole story, so it's good to see these extra data. I assume here the implementation in the PA is good enough to roughly maintain these specs in their product?

 

[VintageFlanker]

I saw from your review that you bought 2xM250NC. How do you compare the two models?

Very simple: No audible difference. Only more power. Period.

 

[Willem]

My budget recommendation for an integrated amplifier is always the Yamaha AS 501/ AS701/ AS 801. Around 100 watts per channel. If it is just for a power amplifer, I was very impressed by the discontinued 2x250 watt Yamaha P2500S that I bought for my son. See here for measurments of its big sister: https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum...mpli-yamaha-p3500s-mise-a-jour-t30056383.html

 

[YoniV]

I'm now trying to decide between the SMSL A8 and the PA-S125NC + d50s combo.
The latter seems a slightly better performer and has the required inputs, while the former has the conveniece of a single unit (up to bluetooth connectivity which will require an extra unit) and slightly better looks.
I'm thus leaning towards the combo.

Now a final question: in both units I see the stereo out has 2 left and 2 right connectors.
What is this used for? How do I connect my speakers properly?
Do I simply use 1 cable per speaker with banana-type connectors, or do I need to short the two connectors similarly to the LF-HF bridge in the speakers?

 

[HammerSandwich]

I don't understand. Both seem to have 2 binding posts per channel: red & black. This is totally normal - and the bare minimum - for hooking up passive speakers, right?

 

[YoniV]

I don't know, that's why I'm asking how to connect these - this is my first set of speakers that's not some Logitech connected to PC via USB or aux or whatever.

If this is standard I will just Google it, I was confused because I thought it might be something similar to bi-amping that I read about when trying to figure out the meaning of the LF-HF readings on the speakers' connectors.

EDIT: ok, I now realise how silly this was, NVM!

 

[dkinric]

With the poor measurements from AVRs coming from ASR lately, it has caused me to rethink my approach similar to what you mention. Get high quality, separate 2 ch amplification, with everything else (DAC, transport etc) in a separate box with it's own power supply. From what we've seen so far, there seems to be significant compromises to stuffing so much stuff into one box (one power supply) - even with supposedly quality manufacturers and so called "direct" modes meant to bypass this.


Although double your budget, this deal caught my eye and is where I am heading:
https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collec...ts/musical-fidelity-m2si-integrated-amplifier