DAC for CCA useful if only using online streaming services like Deezer/Spotify?

[ThsM]

Hi everyone,

I wonder if it is any useful to combine the Chromecast Audio with a good DAC like the Topping D50 if I only listen to music streaming service like Deezer Premium (afaik 320kbps). If I would get a DAC like the D50, would there only be an audible difference, if playing HiRes files?

Or is there a budget DAC (with volume control) which would be better for this purpose like the SMSL Sanskrit 10th?

EDIT:
Btw, my speakers are Audio Note AX one and my amp is a cheep Sherwood Newcastle RX-772 currently feed by the analog out of the CCA.

 

[twsecrest]

The Chromecast Audio device uses analog output.
So once audio is analog, you can't feed it thru a DAC, as DAC are digital input.

 

[FooYatChong]

No, that's not correct. It has SPDIF out:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-of-chromecast-audio-digital-output.4544/

 

[TimW]

If you want to add another volume control the SMSL Sanskrit 10th is a great option. Just make sure to use it with an external power supply, which you would have to do anyway if you are only using the optical input.

Combining the Chromecast with this DAC will give you better measured performance regardless of wheather you're playing 320kbps mp3's or 24/192 wav files. With that being said the improvement is unlikely to be very audible. Your amp and speakers most likely contribute more distortion and noise then the Chromecast's built in DAC.

I can't figure out why you would want to add another volume control since your amp and the Chromecast already have that feature built in. But if you do want another remote volume control, or a screen for displaying sampling rate, or more digital inputs then I could recommend the aforementioned SMSL.

If you're just looking to improve the quality of your sound then I would suggest spending your money in areas that result in a larger improvement. Such as a subwoofer if you don't have one, or better speakers, or room treatment, or tools for room correction, maybe even solid speaker stands if you just have those speakers sitting on some cardboard boxes... Not that I think you do, but good stands might just result in more of an improvement then a new DAC would.

 

[DDF]

Note that Spotify uses a lower bit rate (256) to CCA

 

[twsecrest]

No, that's not correct. It has SPDIF out:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-of-chromecast-audio-digital-output.4544/

Oops, did not notice the optical output on the Chromecasrt Audio.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Most people are unable to distinguish between 320kbps and redbook. And I'm yet to be convinced of claims regarding audible differences between redbook and hi-res.

I'm not saying you personally won't be able to distinguish between any of these formats, but rather I'm trying to illustrate how significant or otherwise the differences might be.

The Chromecast analogue outputs were measured here. Noise and distortion appear to be below any experimentally demonstrated audibility threshold of which I'm aware. This suggests that it won't be possible to audibly improve upon it IMHO.

 

[Willem]

I recently moved from using the analogue output of a CCA into a Quad 33 preamplifier to using the CCA optical output into a Pioneer U-05 DAC/preamp with volume control. That did indeed improve the sound, but I am not sure it was the better DAC in the Pioneer or the better pre amplifier part. Perhaps it was a bit of both. To be clear: the rest of the system is rather good with a Quad 606-2 power amp driving Quad 2805 electrostats plus a B&W PV1d subwoofer tamed by an Antimode 8033 room dsp.
As for the analogue ouput of the CCA, it is important that its so called high dynamic range setting has nothing to do with dynamic range. It is just a higher output option raising the output to the RedBook stadard of 2 V rather than something like 1.2 V. For many integrated amplifers, the 1.2 Volt output will produce a cleaner results as it prevents clipping on amplifier inputs that are more sensitive than the Red Book standard (many are).

 

[ThsM]

Many thanks for all the replies and sorry for my late response.

I can't figure out why you would want to add another volume control since your amp and the Chromecast already have that feature built in.

My Sherwood receiver and CD player are pretty bulky and I don't really need a CD player these days. That's why I like to downsize a bit. Sell the Sherwood combo and only have CCA as source and DAC with volume control feeding a small Class D amp like a crown xls 1002.

Does the volume control off the CCA affect the digital signal and influence its dynamics, if I put the volume down? Or is it a valid "tool" to adjust the volume? Then I would actually skip the DAC and focus on getting a power amp fist.

If you're just looking to improve the quality of your sound then I would suggest spending your money in areas that result in a larger improvement. Such as a subwoofer if you don't have one, or better speakers, or room treatment, or tools for room correction, maybe even solid speaker stands if you just have those speakers sitting on some cardboard boxes... Not that I think you do, but good stands might just result in more of an improvement then a new DAC would. [

I'm completely with you. But I can't do much in terms of room treatment. There is already a carpet, a bookshelf and a couch which reduce reflections. If I start putting absorbers to the wall and/or ceiling, my wife wouldn't be that amused

I also use "Mission Stance" speaker stands with some decoupling rubber feet attached.

Most people are unable to distinguish between 320kbps and redbook. And I'm yet to be convinced of claims regarding audible differences between redbook and hi-res.

Good point. I am quite sure, I could not hear the difference between a (properly encoded) 320kbps mp3 and redbook. But do the streaming services really use properly encoded streams and is there no further "compression"? I sometimes have to impression, that certain songs sound better from CD than from Deezer (via CCA analog out or laptop and odac). I did no blind testing, its just a "feeling".

As for the analogue ouput of the CCA, it is important that its so called high dynamic range setting has nothing to do with dynamic range.

Thanks, this is already enabled.


So if I sum this up...
The CCA has an OK analog out, which could be used as volume control. A DAC can make an improvement, but it might not be that much, that I expect it to be.

Maybe just a small Class D amp with optical input would make more sense in terms of downsizing. I have to think about it...

 

[Willem]

Two things:
1 The internal volume control of the CCA is is sonically perfect but not very convenient. I would prefer an additional volume control, either in a DAC, in an amplifier, or separately. The latter would not cost much.
2 For most amplifiers I would disable high dynamic range. It does not increase the dynamic range, but only increases output level. For many amplifiers this would be a hotter input than they can handle without clipping.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Good point. I am quite sure, I could not hear the difference between a (properly encoded) 320kbps mp3 and redbook. But do the streaming services really use properly encoded streams and is there no further "compression"? I sometimes have to impression, that certain songs sound better from CD than from Deezer (via CCA analog out or laptop and odac). I did no blind testing, its just a "feeling".

A large amount of the music from streaming services is "watermarked", creating additional distortion. My view is that this may be more likely to be audible than the compression itself. This is true for both compressed and hi-res streaming, however. So your feeling may be grounded in objective reality, or it may be psychological I guess

 

[Soniclife]

A large amount of the music from streaming services is "watermarked", creating additional distortion. My view is that this may be more likely to be audible than the compression itself. This is true for both compressed and hi-res streaming, however. So your feeling may be grounded in objective reality, or it may be psychological I guess

Plus there is limited way of knowing if the streaming is using the same master as your CD, which can radical or subtly change the sound.

 

[GGroch]

........ For most amplifiers I would disable high dynamic range. It does not increase the dynamic range, but only increases output level. For many amplifiers this would be a hotter input than they can handle without clipping.

I had not heard this before, that is, I have heard that it can clip some amps, but not that it did not impact dynamic range... Can you point me to a source/discussion of this?

 

[Willem]

Not now - busy at work. Somebody posted convincing measurements on hydrogen audio. Will try to find this tonight.

 

[Willem]

I could not resist. Reply 72 by Kozmonaut in the thread on the Chromecast Audio. And there are others as well. Of course this is only when using the analogue output. Whether 2 Volt is too much depends on your amplifier but a surprising number will have an issue here, as in fact with cd output.

 

[Music1969]

I had not heard this before, that is, I have heard that it can clip some amps, but not that it did not impact dynamic range... Can you point me to a source/discussion of this?

2.8 Vmax, 2.0 Vrms ...

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2016/02/measurements-google-chromecast-audio.html

 

[GGroch]

Thanks for the links/references on the high dynamic range feature. I use Optical out 90% of the time, where the HDR switch has no impact, but I will play with it for a bit to see if I am convinced.

Archimago shows the 2Vrms output, but I do not see where he mentions the HDR setting (which defaults to Off). He also speculates it could impact highly compressed music (so I suppose, an expander rather than compressor). The hydrogen audio discussion shows that on the chosen sample track, there is no evidence of change in dynamic range. But, whether this switch is simply a gain adjustment (so everything is softer when HDR is off), or whether it is a peak limiter (reducing everything above 1.4v to 1.4v is not clear). It is also not clear to me if his sample is from a highly compressed source.

But... I leave HDR on all the time when using analog because it makes me feel like I am getting more HiFi for free

 

[DDF]

Most people are unable to distinguish between 320kbps and redbook. And I'm yet to be convinced of claims regarding audible differences between redbook and hi-res.

I'm not saying you personally won't be able to distinguish between any of these formats, but rather I'm trying to illustrate how significant or otherwise the differences might be.

The Chromecast analogue outputs were measured here. Noise and distortion appear to be below any experimentally demonstrated audibility threshold of which I'm aware. This suggests that it won't be possible to audibly improve upon it IMHO.

Spotify over cca is 256 aac vs standard stream 320 ogg vorbis. I don't know if the 256 aac is coded from uncompressed sources or transcoded from the 320 ogg, but Tidal over cca often (not always) sounds cleaner to me, level matched, when trialed over numerous songs so I suspect but cant prove that the latter may be true at times.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Spotify over cca is 256 aac vs standard stream 320 ogg vorbis. I don't know if the 256 aac is coded from uncompressed sources or transcoded from the 320 ogg, but Tidal over cca often (not always) sounds cleaner to me, level matched, when trialed over numerous songs so I suspect but cant prove that the latter may be true at times.

Ok, hadn’t realised CCA used a different codec from other forms of Spotify. GTK.

IME, performing lossy compression on already lossily compressed audio is a bad idea. Hopefully that’s not what’s happening here.

 

[TimW]

Maybe just a small Class D amp with optical input would make more sense in terms of downsizing. I have to think about it...

Feature wise the Topping MX3 probably meets your requirements and is very compact. However, Amir stopped short of recommending it based on sub-optimal DAC and power amplifier performance. It would probably sound just fine but spending more would get you better performance at least in the way of power output.

The Klipsch Powergate is still available for $150 right now and Amir recommended it at that price point even though performance isn't spectacular. It has an optical input but the built in DAC, at least with USB input, is worse than the CCA's analog output. There have also been reports of overheating and reliability issues but I don't know much about that.

Does the volume control off the CCA affect the digital signal and influence its dynamics, if I put the volume down? Or is it a valid "tool" to adjust the volume? Then I would actually skip the DAC and focus on getting a power amp fist.

I don't know how the volume control of the CCA actually works but I see no reason why it would be worse then that of a DAC. I have used the CCA's internal DAC and volume control in simple background music systems. Usually paired with an integrated amplifier with auto-on functionality. I set the volume of the integrated amplifier medium-low so that the CCA volume will normally be at 80% or higher and friends casting to the system can't accidentally blow up the house.

I like how these simple systems work, but I admit that in my personal systems I always use an outboard DAC with my CCA's. This way I feel like I'm getting the most performance out of the CCA and a DAC with remote and extra inputs is more convenient and versatile.

Sell the Sherwood combo and only have CCA as source and DAC with volume control feeding a small Class D amp like a crown xls 1002.

If I were you this would be the route I would go with. While many might argue that it won't be audibly superior to the CCA sending analog output straight into a cheap low power amp, I like to rest assured I have an objectively high performance system. The Crown XLS1002 will certainly ensure that you have a copious amount of power. And as Amir has said:

In my experience of either power amplifiers or headphone, how much power you have available determines fidelity first and foremost. Lack of power results in anemic sound which seems to lack impact, and even resolution.

On the other hand, the review of the Crown XLS1502 showed that these amplifiers are not excellent performers in the way of noise and distortion.

I recently purchased a new open box Yamaha P3500S for $250. It is rated at 2 x 450 watts into 4Ω, 20Hz ~ 20kHz, THD+N = 0.1% and there are measurements showing it has very good performance. This is a good option IMO.

You could also put together an ICEpower 200ASC+200AC amplifier with modules from Parts Express and a case from ghent audio for around $300. This requires soldering and assembly though and performance isn't as good as Hypex based amps which cost more.

As for a DAC with remote the SMSL Sanskrit 10th is a great low cost option but you should also consider the SMSL SU-8 V2. The SU-8 has Tier 1 SINAD performance, balanced outputs, and a built in power supply unlike the Sanskrit which doesn't come with a required 5V adapter.