DAC burn-in/break-in? My Gustard X16 measurements

[solderdude]

Thus, I sensed an imbalance of 0.2db lower output on the right. As a result, I thought E30 highs are better with a particular song with lots of echo trial on the right. Then over the weeks, I adjusted my sitting position more to the right to get more balanced sound, and thus I got the impression that x16 highs improved over time.

It is highly unlikely 0,2dB overall channel imbalance will be audible, let alone change echo trails or treble quality perception.
I mean, just listen to the DAC using music and then process the same recording where you change the amplitude 0.2dB of one channel and listen again. Use the L30.
Then if you experience the same sensation and in an ABX test you can reliably detect differences and have posted a link to the used recordings (or mail them to individuals willing to analyze/listen) then the above becomes plausible.

 

[Pdxwayne]

It is highly unlikely 0,2dB overall channel imbalance will be audible, let alone change echo trails or treble quality perception.
I mean, just listen to the DAC using music and then process the same recording where you change the amplitude 0.2dB of one channel and listen again. Use the L30.
Then if you experience the same sensation and in an ABX test you can reliably detect differences and have posted a link to the used recordings (or mail them to individuals willing to analyze/listen) then the above becomes plausible.

Thanks for your suggestions!

I already checked with my headphones setup, hard to detect differences. I think maybe sound stage is too small.

In stereo setup downstairs, my front wall is ~23 ft wide. The soundstage illusion I get from my stereo setup can fill the whole width of the wall and beyond. That hugh sound stage width should make it easier for me to detect a slight shift.

Based on the measurements, I just need to adjust E30 down by 0.5db, then it would volume match the x16 left channel. No need another L30 to adjust for volume match.

So, for now, using my stereo setup downstairs is the most logical next step. I will report back.

Again, appreciate your continue support!

 

[lizhuoyin]

Thanks for your suggestions!

I already checked with my headphones setup, hard to detect differences. I think maybe sound stage is too small.

In stereo setup downstairs, my front wall is ~23 ft wide. The soundstage illusion I get from my stereo setup can fill the whole width of the wall and beyond. That hugh sound stage width should make it easier for me to detect a slight shift.

Based on the measurements, I just need to adjust E30 down by 0.5db, then it would volume match the x16 left channel. No need another L30 to adjust for volume match.

So, for now, using my stereo setup downstairs is the most logical next step. I will report back.

Again, appreciate your continue support!

I just made a pair of -30 dB u-pad attenuators for my X16 and a pair of active speakers. It turns out the cables (attenuators) are 0.01dB apart. So with new cables, my X16 channels' imbalance reduced to 0.01 dB. Glad I learned a way to test it.

 

[Pdxwayne]

This is not really related to X16, but since I am in the learning mode, I decide to check KTB for frequency response. Looks strange after 3Khz.

Any expert can tell me what that means? I have not used KTB for a long time. Fresh powered on and 20 minutes later, similar look.

Top is KTB, below two lines are X16 that I measured again right after first measured KTB, x16 looked just like before. Thanks!

 

[Blumlein 88]

This is not really related to X16, but since I am in the learning mode, I decide to check KTB for frequency response. Looks strange after 3Khz.

Any expert can tell me what that means? I have not used KTB for a long time. Fresh powered on and 20 minutes later, similar look.

Top is KTB, below two lines are X16 that I measured after KTB, look just like before. Thanks!

View attachment 115920

Looks like that would have to be noise. Not sure what would cause it. Can you hear noise during the sweep with it?

 

[pma]

Looks like that would have to be noise. Not sure what would cause it. Can you hear noise during the sweep with it?

Might be too low signal level (and thus high computational "noise"). We know nothing about his measurement conditions, better step aside, IMO.

 

[JSmith]

I offer a break in service... people send me their stuff, pay me $499, it involves a hammer. PM for further details...



JSmith

 

[Pdxwayne]

Looks like that would have to be noise. Not sure what would cause it. Can you hear noise during the sweep with it?

I didn't try listening as this was the same loop back measurements I have been doing with E30 and x16 using Scarlett Solo. REW output remains at -20db as when I checked x16 and E30.

It at least confirmed KTB has the highest dB output when fed same signal, same as when I did my check with meter last year when trying to voltage match before doing E30 vs KTB blind listening test. At that time, as Node2i have no USB output, I powered KTB via a phone USB charger and used it's coaxial input during listening tests. I didn't really hear much of difference between it and E30 at that time after voltage matched.

For the measurements I did yesterday, I use USB input of KTB. The KTB has only one USB input and it gets its power and signals via the same USB input, via same USB cable from laptop. Maybe it is the noise from laptop USB port.

Edit: Since I am going to move E30 and x16 to my living room soon for listening comparisons, I thought maybe I can still use KTB temporarily in my headphones setup, thus the thought of measuring KTB came up. Now I am not sure I want to use the KTB... ; )

Thanks for checking!

 

[Pdxwayne]

I am slowly getting my setup ready for living room stereo listening test.

First thing is figure out how to use my RCA quick switch while seated, with my amp more than 10 ft away.

What I could do now is use extenders to connect 10 ft cables with 6 ft cables, so I have 16 ft total length. All cables from Bluejeans.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Looks like that would have to be noise. Not sure what would cause it. Can you hear noise during the sweep with it?

I measured KTB again after 12 hours and got same issue.

I decided to listen to the sweep and indeed heard strange noise as it goes higher as compared to x16. It would goes up and down in intensity, almost like police car siren.

Anyway, I can't get REW and Reaper to work at the same time, thus can't capture audio to share.

Music listening still acceptable, may be a bit less "clean" sounding, but could be just my bias after seeing the measurements.
; )

 

[Blumlein 88]

I measured KTB again after 12 hours and got same issue.

I decided to listen to the sweep and indeed heard strange noise as it goes higher as compared to x16. It would goes up and down in intensity, almost like police car siren.

Anyway, I can't get REW and Reaper to work at the same time, thus can't capture audio to share.

Music listening still acceptable, may be a bit less "clean" sounding, but could be just my bias after seeing the measurements.
; )

I'd say there's something wrong there. It should not be like that.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I'd say there's something wrong there. It should not be like that.

I wonder if I should ask for a warranty fix....

Thanks for checking!

 

[Blumlein 88]

I wonder if I should ask for a warranty fix....

Thanks for checking!

I would.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Finally got a brief moment to setup everything, start listen, and got bad ground loop noise due to using 2 different electrical circuits.
: (

I then brought in my long extension cord to connect my DAC setup to same circuit as the amp and the ground loop issue is gone.
: )

I used a simple song (pocket piano) in this album:
https://tidal.com/playlist/e368f41b-c5d9-4121-aa2a-e1c49ce1e17a

For the 10 minutes spent listening, I still sense that E30 is a little sweeter in the highs than x16, on the right side. Not obvious, but can sense it.

Next step is blind tests. Not sure when I can do it, but hopefully soon.

My DAC setup next to me on sofa. Top one is the RCA quick switch. Both DAC fed by Node2i.

My partial audio setup with long messy RCA cable on the ground. I have two distint setups in living room. One is for video playback. The other is for music. The music setup is DAC direct to Parasound A21 at the bottom of rack. Parasound direct connect to Paradigm Persona B.

 

[Pdxwayne]

It is highly unlikely 0,2dB overall channel imbalance will be audible, let alone change echo trails or treble quality perception.
I mean, just listen to the DAC using music and then process the same recording where you change the amplitude 0.2dB of one channel and listen again. Use the L30.
Then if you experience the same sensation and in an ABX test you can reliably detect differences and have posted a link to the used recordings (or mail them to individuals willing to analyze/listen) then the above becomes plausible.

I asked my wife to wear headphones to watch a video last night so I could do another 30 minutes of sighted, volume matched, listening comparison.
: )

As I told you, I can't really detect a difference with headphones setup. But yesterday I could still sense a difference with my stereo setup.

I think the main difference is the stage size of headphones vs my stereo setup. My stereo setup can project a large stage illusion, one that can extend beyond 23+ ft wide and 10+ ft high.

Regarding the sparkles and echo trails difference, I think I got a better understanding of what I heard now.

E30 provides a stage height that is more horizontal than x16, if I keep the same sitting position. That x16 slight stage height drop on the right is what gave me the illusion that E30 has more sparkles and better echo trails.

Something like this, very roughly:

Next step is blind tests. Will report back. Hopefully sooner than later.

 

[Jimbob54]

I asked my wife to wear headphones to watch a video last night so I could do another 30 minutes of sighted, volume matched, listening comparison.
: )

As I told you, I can't really detect a difference with headphones setup. But yesterday I could still sense a difference with my stereo setup.

I think the main difference is the stage size of headphones vs my stereo setup. My stereo setup can project a large stage illusion, one that can extend beyond 23+ ft wide and 10+ ft high.

Regarding the sparkles and echo trails difference, I think I got a better understanding of what I heard now.

E30 provides a stage height that is more horizontal than x16, if I keep the same sitting position. That x16 slight stage height drop on the right is what gave me the illusion that E30 has more sparkles and better echo trails.

Something like this, very roughly:

View attachment 116191

Next step is blind tests. Will report back. Hopefully sooner than later.

I'm assuming both dacs are on the same filter (or at least ones that show the same behaviours)?

And level matched of course.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I'm assuming both dacs are on the same filter (or at least ones that show the same behaviours)?

And level matched of course.

Yes, E30 filter 1, x16 filter 2, per @solderdude, as close as it can get.

E30 volume is -8.5db, x16 is -8db. As long as E30 db setting is set 0.5 dB lower than x16, they would volume matched for left channel.

 

[lizhuoyin]

Yes, E30 filter 1, x16 filter 2, per @solderdude, as close as it can get.

E30 volume is -8.5db, x16 is -8db. As long as E30 is set minus 0.5 dB lower than x16, they would volume matched for left channel.

0.2dB does matter, doesn't it?

 

[Pdxwayne]

0.2dB does matter, doesn't it?

It would seems it matters for me with my stereo setup, in a big room.....

What is left is blind tests. : )

 

[Pdxwayne]

Yesterday evening I decided to check my hearing again with sighted, volume matched, listening comparisons.

Just a few seconds into a simple song (pocket piano) in this album:
https://tidal.com/playlist/e368f41b-c5d9-4121-aa2a-e1c49ce1e17a, my wife complaint that it is too loud. I already turned the node2i volume down from my normal listening volume and too loud for her?
: (

Anyway, it got me thinking that my potential song selections for blind tests could really irritate my family members a lot. The bagpipes music definitely out of questions....
; )

So I decided to check my Tidal's playlists for something less irritating, but still will let me hear a difference.

The first list that caught my eyes was the short list shared by another member in the x16 thread. He was the one who returned the x16 due to poor sound.

First song I check was Norah Jones' Come Away with Me. Nah, will take too long to sense a difference.

Next one was Taylor Swift's Willow. Hmm, surprisingly, this could be my top choice for blind test. With X16, Taylor's vocal turned a little bit dimmer. I really think I sensed that.

Now I am excited to do blind tests. Will see if my daughter will be willing to help me out this weekend. Yes, she has plenty of experiences doing that during the period of my KTB vs E30 blind tests.