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DAC burn-in/break-in? My Gustard X16 measurements

solderdude

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Headphones do not have resolution 'steps' they just output SPL according to the signal that it is fed far, far smaller in level difference than the hearing can detect. The hearing has a threshold. The headphone doesn't. 98.665dB and 98.664dB can easily be made. Your ears/brain cannot detect.
Speakers can do the same. You just cannot reliably measure it because of acoustics and noise in the measurement chain.

It's your perception you need to study. The answers are all there. You'll be amazed how crappy your hearing is as a 'measurement device'.
 
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Jimbob54

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I guess at the end it all goes back to listening tests?

: )

BTW, curious. Typically how resolving are headphones?

Can headphones reliably output at 0.2db resolution or even lower? If so, which brand and model?

Thanks again!
You're going to have to elaborate on what you mean by "resolving" in this particular case. Can a headphone accurately reproduce a fraction of a dB change in amplitude of a frequency? I think that is what you are asking?
 

raistlin65

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Correct!

The strange thing is after powered it on straight for ~3 weeks, I could enjoy the same song more. This could be just my imagination. I can further test the warm up effect. I will continue power it on for at least two weeks and measure again.
That is most likely it.

New neurological testing done with fMRI confirms that our brains engage in predictive coding with audio
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/01/210108120110.htm
 
OP
Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Thread Starter #344
You're going to have to elaborate on what you mean by "resolving" in this particular case. Can a headphone accurately reproduce a fraction of a dB change in amplitude of a frequency? I think that is what you are asking?
Yes, you got it.
@solderdude answered my question a post before you.

Thanks for checking!
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Thread Starter #345
Headphones do not have resolution 'steps' they just output SPL according to the signal that it is fed far, far smaller in level difference than the hearing can detect. The hearing has a threshold. The headphone doesn't. 98.665dB and 98.664dB can easily be made. Your ears/brain cannot detect.
Speakers can do the same. You just cannot reliably measure it because of acoustics and noise in the measurement chain.

It's your perception you need to study. The answers are all there. You'll be amazed how crappy your hearing is as a 'measurement device'.
Again, appreciate your answers!

If I try the 0.2db online blind test sound samples with my $50 headset via smart phone (Samsung note 9) and can't hear a difference via my headset, safe to assume it is my hearing and not the headphones, correct?

Thanks!
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Thread Starter #346
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Thread Starter #347
Headphones do not have resolution 'steps' they just output SPL according to the signal that it is fed far, far smaller in level difference than the hearing can detect. The hearing has a threshold. The headphone doesn't. 98.665dB and 98.664dB can easily be made. Your ears/brain cannot detect.
Speakers can do the same. You just cannot reliably measure it because of acoustics and noise in the measurement chain.

It's your perception you need to study. The answers are all there. You'll be amazed how crappy your hearing is as a 'measurement device'.
I also tried the online pitch test.

I can pass 5 pitch, but can't hear difference with 2 pitch samples. This is my hearing and not $50 headphones via smartphone (Samsung Note 9), correct?

Screenshot_20210228-135739_Samsung Internet.jpg
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Thread Starter #349
Did speakers blind 0.5db test just now.

Able to pass. E30 to Parasound A21 to Paradigm Persona B.

0.5db_blind_test_e30_stereo_setup.PNG
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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0.2db change not easy. Trying to get used to 0.2db, I seem to be able to sense down more than up, but then.......complaints from wife.... : ) So no results for 0.2db speakers blind test for today.
 
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Blumlein 88

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22 hours from cold powered on, both L and R channels drop by ~0.05db as compared to powered on 2 hr.

View attachment 115538
So if this is a 2 volt output you are looking at a change of .012 volts or so. That is believable for a warmup difference.

Or looked at the other way it is about -65 db change vs the full signal. Which could be warmup or could be fluctuation in the voltage of your wall outlet. Or some combination.
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Thread Starter #352
So if this is a 2 volt output you are looking at a change of .012 volts or so. That is believable for a warmup difference.

Or looked at the other way it is about -65 db change vs the full signal. Which could be warmup or could be fluctuation in the voltage of your wall outlet. Or some combination.
Yes, RCA outputs. Will continue to check daily. : )
 
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solderdude

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Yes, typical warm up thing, not audible but measurable.
Far below any audible thresholds.
B.t.w. to get a feel of the actual present output voltages can you run the REW test but connect your multimeter on the balanced out ?
 

mansr

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So if this is a 2 volt output you are looking at a change of .012 volts or so. That is believable for a warmup difference.
It's a bit high compared to what I've measured for a few DACs, though not unreasonably so. Absent evidence to the contrary, warm-up seems the most likely cause.

fluctuation in the voltage of your wall outlet
I'd hope the regulators are better than that.
 

Jimbob54

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Just a side question: What if we passed online audio blind tests? Then likely what we hear are more real than imagination, correct?
No. The blind tests help you determine the physical abilities of your ears to hear whatever is under test.

That doesnt mean all the changes/ differences you "hear" between DACs, time etc are real. Thats why you need properly controlled tests for whatever you are examining. You still have to remove sighted bias, not say "I have good ears , so if I perceive it, its likely to be real" though I suspect that is the position you want to get to.
 

lizhuoyin

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22 hours from cold powered on, both L and R channels drop by ~0.05db as compared to powered on 2 hr.

View attachment 115538
Inspired by OP's tests, I did my own (-20dB, without clipping. 20hz-20khz, sweep). I am new to REW. And I didn't even realize that I have an audio interface (Zoom H6) which is capable of capturing analog signal. I am fully doubtful of the accuracy. But the one and only goal is to get the ballpark of channel balance or imbalance from a Gustard X16. Following is the graph. The channel diff is around 0.0187dB. It looks good to me.
1614604365004.png
 

Jimbob54

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Inspired by OP's tests, I did my own (-20dB, without clipping. 20hz-20khz, sweep). I am new to REW. And I didn't even realize that I have an audio interface (Zoom H6) which is capable of capturing analog signal. I am fully doubtful of the accuracy. But the one and only goal is to get the ballpark of channel balance or imbalance from a Gustard X16. Following is the graph. The channel diff is around 0.0187dB. It looks good to me.
View attachment 115636
Bit of a difference between your c 0.02 dB and OP 0.2dB channel difference (if we assume both ADC comparable). I do wonder if he has a lemon.

But for me, the only test that matters is if he can tell the difference between the E30 and X16 blind and level matched with filters engaged that behave the same (and I would use the ones closest to brickwall). If he can, then I would return the X16 and find something else- possibly another e30!
 
OP
Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Thread Starter #359
Inspired by OP's tests, I did my own (-20dB, without clipping. 20hz-20khz, sweep). I am new to REW. And I didn't even realize that I have an audio interface (Zoom H6) which is capable of capturing analog signal. I am fully doubtful of the accuracy. But the one and only goal is to get the ballpark of channel balance or imbalance from a Gustard X16. Following is the graph. The channel diff is around 0.0187dB. It looks good to me.
View attachment 115636
Your x16 is powered on for how long before you measure? Thanks!
 

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