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DAC Build Quality

Which has the best build quality, QC, parts etc.


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JSmith

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So like many here I'm considering upgrading parts of my system.

I'm pretty much decided on a Hypex Ncore based amp from either March, Boxem, Apollon or Nord... leaning towards Boxem due to superb looking build quality and auto on/off as most DAC's don't have a 12V trigger. Leaning away from Nord as they want 100 pounds more for a 12V trigger... seems a bit steep.

Anyway, I've narrowed down DAC choices to Gustard, SMSL, Loxjie and Topping... not the cheaper models, the mid to top level units that have been released in the last 12 months.

I have read a few stories of build quality issues with Topping, noting some people needing to return units multiple times.

I've also read about heat related issues with some of these units where they perform differently on small temperature changes.

What is the general opinion on the build quality of these four I have listed?

It seems each offer a mid to premium offering at similar prices... appreciate ASR members feedback on this.



Cheers,
JSmith
 
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JSmith

JSmith

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How about a 2nd hand RME or maybe an earlier, but still super 2nd hand Benchmark DAC? Then no quality concerns. Not much of an increase in budget.
Yeah fair point, have been looking at the RME products, but it's hard to justify the DAC costing twice as much as the amp. 2nd hand is certainly an option, so will keep that in mind as well... however it's always nice receiving, unboxing and setting up brand new items too. :)

I'm also looking for reasonable simplicity while still finding the best measuring products I can for the $'s.



JSmith
 
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JSmith

JSmith

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I'm not sure if any of these DACs has 12V triggers.
Nah they don't... annoying huh?

This is why I'm considering the BoXem with auto on/off based on signal, although wondering how this will affect capacitor longevity.

Another thing is most DAC's only have one of each digital input... SMSL M400 has 2 optical which I was leaning towards, but then read about the heat issue and realised it is a slightly older release too.

Filters and preset coloration eq's are nice, but would be handy to just have a bass/treble setting in some of these DAC's too. Often late at night one needs to "drop the bass"... down. :)



JSmith
 

VintageFlanker

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SMSL M400 has 2 optical which I was leaning towards, but then read about the heat issue and realised it is a slightly older release too.
This is actually M500 and the heat issue is fixed with their V2 for a while. I won't recommend this as a preamp for Ncore, tho: only 40 cranks to adjust volume relative to its high output (6V+). I actually know few people complaining about this.
 

curiouspeter

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Nah they don't... annoying huh?

This is why I'm considering the BoXem with auto on/off based on signal, although wondering how this will affect capacitor longevity.

Another thing is most DAC's only have one of each digital input... SMSL M400 has 2 optical which I was leaning towards, but then read about the heat issue and realised it is a slightly older release too.

Filters and preset coloration eq's are nice, but would be handy to just have a bass/treble setting in some of these DAC's too. Often late at night one needs to "drop the bass"... down. :)



JSmith
Matrix Audio also has good build quality. Their DACs also have built-in streamers if that helps.
 

Mnyb

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IF you want a Topping D70 there is a sale on AudioPhonics . It's replaced by the newer D70S hence they are selling some remaining D70 stock .

D70S has MQA and slightly slightly better spec , i decided i needed neither of it for my headphone listening.
The old D70's only slight shortcoming is amended by me using EQ and gain adjustment on the PC (The old D70 measured a slightly tiny bit worse with full signal 4.0v but its on the other hand a very quiet DAC i hear no background noise )

I intended to use EQ and up sampling on my computer , that implies whatever i listen to must fully decode on the computer . That's another way mqa is an idiotic format the final decode is onboard a chip in the DAC hence no necessary EQ or DRC or other good stuff can be used in conjunction with full MQA :)
 

curiouspeter

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IF you want a Topping D70 there is a sale on AudioPhonics . It's replaced by the newer D70S hence they are selling some remaining D70 stock .

D70S has MQA and slightly slightly better spec , i decided i needed neither of it for my headphone listening.
The old D70's only slight shortcoming is amended by me using EQ and gain adjustment on the PC (The old D70 measured a slightly tiny bit worse with full signal 4.0v but its on the other hand a very quiet DAC i hear no background noise )

I intended to use EQ and up sampling on my computer , that implies whatever i listen to must fully decode on the computer . That's another way mqa is an idiotic format the final decode is onboard a chip in the DAC hence no necessary EQ or DRC or other good stuff can be used in conjunction with full MQA :)
I use Roon to decode MQA and perform EQ. However, MQA rendering will still be done by the DAC.

I use full MQA on my headphone DAC because I don't do EQ there.

I suppose for higher-end setups people may just do room treatment and not EQ. Given enough money, it is easy to treat a room if it's built to do one thing.
 

Mnyb

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I use Roon to decode MQA and perform EQ. However, MQA rendering will still be done by the DAC.

I use full MQA on my headphone DAC because I don't do EQ there.

I suppose for higher-end setups people may just do room treatment and not EQ. Given enough money, it is easy to treat a room if it's built to do one thing.

Maybe its for another tread not spamming this one (sorry) , yes Roon does the first unfold .
But how does Roon preserve the other mqa data if you treat it as just another signal and do EQ and volume adjustment ? I'm a bit sceptical as the mqa data resides in the lower bits of the signal but no bit are untouched when you EQ or volume or do any processing? Can Roon embed this data in the processed output signal so that your DAC still knows that this is an mqa signal and then do rendering ?

Actual full room treatment is not that attainable for most people , you must sacrife an entire room in your house. And its not really fully possible in the bass anyway so you must use subwoofers with some EQ applied to tame the bass nodes even in the most well treated of rooms , they have an xover that xover is in the digital domain so processing is involved anyway .
You can ofocurse use an analog in from your DAC to your HT processor or other DRC capable device , but all argue that that is a lossy process that would render a mqa or not question moot ?

But first unfold is probably good enough , so Roon is good that way you have enough of the mqa unpacked to not suffer the drawbacks of no mqa decoding at all. I avoid it by avoiding mqa content :)
 

curiouspeter

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Maybe its for another tread not spamming this one (sorry) , yes Roon does the first unfold .
But how does Roon preserve the other mqa data if you treat it as just another signal and do EQ and volume adjustment ? I'm a bit sceptical as the mqa data resides in the lower bits of the signal but no bit are untouched when you EQ or volume or do any processing? Can Roon embed this data in the processed output signal so that your DAC still knows that this is an mqa signal and then do rendering ?

Actual full room treatment is not that attainable for most people , you must sacrife an entire room in your house. And its not really fully possible in the bass anyway so you must use subwoofers with some EQ applied to tame the bass nodes even in the most well treated of rooms , they have an xover that xover is in the digital domain so processing is involved anyway .
You can ofocurse use an analog in from your DAC to your HT processor or other DRC capable device , but all argue that that is a lossy process that would render a mqa or not question moot ?

But first unfold is probably good enough , so Roon is good that way you have enough of the mqa unpacked to not suffer the drawbacks of no mqa decoding at all. I avoid it by avoiding mqa content :)

Correct me if I am wrong, but the second "unfold" is just upsampling using a pre-selected filter. It does not need encoded bits for this process beyond simple signaling, which I think Roon will embed.

I agree most people cannot afford actual room treatment, except people who buy MSB and dCS DACs. :p

I just use PEQ (8 bands) in Roon to correct the room, with the help of REW. My server is too feeble to do convolution on DSD streams. I find even simple parametric EQ helps a lot. I do not crave Dirac anymore.

I moved to Qobuz because I wanted to avoid MQA. Lo and behold, there are stealth MQA albums on Qobuz. Looks like this is spreading.
 

curiouspeter

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Back on topic...

My Gustard X16 feels very nice, especially considering that it costs only $499. I can imagine their premium DACs (e.g. X22 Pro) will be on a whole new level.

I am very build-quality conscious. For comparison, I am not impressed with Apple products (we have 4 MacBook Pros and 2 iMacs).
 
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JSmith

JSmith

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I’m not answering your question but it’s worth taking a look at Buckeye Amps.
Thanks for the suggestion, but the build quality of Buckeye is not what I'm after, which is why I've not mentioned same.

So as I thought myself, it seems ASR members agree Gustard and Topping have the better build quality out of the four listed. That's a bit surprising though as there are plenty of comments here are elsewhere about poor QC for Topping products... so very much leaning to Gustard at this stage. Will keep an eye on this poll to seed if there is any major change to the results.



JSmith
 
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JSmith

JSmith

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Matrix Audio also has good build quality. Their DACs also have built-in streamers if that helps.
Thanks, yeah have looked at these too (probably 30+ DAC unit producers) and they look excellent, quite expensive though. It's not that I don't have the money, however always looking for best performance/functionality vs price. Appreciate the feedback though Peter. :)



JSmith
 

curiouspeter

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Thanks for the suggestion, but the build quality of Buckeye is not what I'm after, which is why I've not mentioned same.

So as I thought myself, it seems ASR members agree Gustard and Topping have the better build quality out of the four listed. That's a bit surprising though as there are plenty of comments here are elsewhere about poor QC for Topping products... so very much leaning to Gustard at this stage. Will keep an eye on this poll to seed if there is any major change to the results.



JSmith
Topping is the most popular, which means there will be more defective units in the wild simply because of statistics. Also, people who have had a bad experience are much more likely to be vocal about it.

It is not impossible to get a bad unit from any of these manufacturers (or any manufacturer). However, given the price and the typical experience, I think they are all pretty good bets.

Thanks, yeah have looked at these too (probably 30+ DAC unit producers) and they look excellent, quite expensive though. It's not that I don't have the money, however always looking for best performance/functionality vs price. Appreciate the feedback though Peter. :)

I totally understand. We all try to look for the best value.
 
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JSmith

JSmith

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Bump... anymore votes, on build quality alone? Surely there are more than 10 opinions on this? :)



JSmith
 

Jimmy

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I would say that it's more about seller's warranty than build quality alone, my Topping D30 died and I got a refund, but if you search you will surely find horror stories about products from most brands. What I never do, is to buy expensive gear directly from China, always from local sellers, this way if you got a lemon you're covered without too much hassle.

Anyway, if your budget allows it, and you want gear that lasts and has good support behind it, just go with brands like RME, Benchmark, Antelope, Teac, to name a few.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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With dacs, I'm just not sure there's much of any benefit to spending more to get a better build. I'm OK with spending a hundred bucks on a dac that sounds audibly indistinguishable from a $500 dac. Even if the cheapie craps out in a year and a half, I'll just replace it with another $100 dac. By then there's likely to be some hot new cheapie on the market anyway. Spending more is certainly no assurance that you won't have issues. I've got a couple Topping dacs (a D10 & an E30) and they both seem well built and work great so far.
 

Koeitje

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What about a MiniDSP SHD?
 
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