DAC blind tests? EVER?

[Frank2]

Do you, or anyone else here, by any chance know if this delay could be part of the explanation of the appeal of vinyl?
Often it's been claimed that vinyl has a deeper and wider soundstage, etc.
I've usually put it down to frequency response (or EQ), which actually can affect the soundstage, perception of depth, etc., especially if you lower the harshness region.

I once visited someone who had re-installed his record player next to his CD player (this was in the pre-streaming era). He played an old Genesis record (And Then There Were Three) and was enthusiastic about the warmth that was added to the sound - much better than that cold digital sound. I suggested to put on the CD as well, to make a direct AB comparison. To our amazement, the CD sounded much warmer than the record...

I had a similar experience when I started to use Spotify Premium. I listened to a Dire Straits album on Spotify (On Every Street) and was convinced the CD sound was much richer, with more detail and stereo depth. So I put on the CD as well to make a direct AB comparison. No difference at all...

In both cases human audio memory appeared to be hopelessly inaccurate and completely governed by expectation.

I have a DEQ2496 in my digital audio path so I experimented a bit with a difference in delay between L and R. It appears that a delay difference of 2 ms completely ruins the stereo image. Very small delays of 0.04 or 0.06 ms seemed to have a small panning effect on sounds that are mastered to be heard coming from behind. I tested it with "Impressive Instant" by Madonna. Did not do a double blind test so I might have fooled myself as well, since slightly turning my head a bit would have caused the same L to R delay

 

[board]

You asked a question with a... questionable premise. Examine that premise first.

Whatever .
I asked a simple yes or no question, which can of course also be elaborated upon, and you haven't even attempted to answer it.
I'm not a vinyl lover, in case you think so.

 

[SIY]

I asked a simple yes or no question, which can of course also be elaborated upon

Here's the elaboration: your question makes a MAJOR assumption which is shown to be highly unlikely in Uwins's paper. Read the paper, then you can stop trying to figure out the mechanism for a sonic preference which turns out not to be a sonic preference.

 

[board]

Here's the elaboration: your question makes a MAJOR assumption which is shown to be highly unlikely in Uwins's paper. Read the paper, then you can stop trying to figure out the mechanism for a sonic preference which turns out not to be a sonic preference.

What is the MAAAAAAAAJOR assumption I'm making?

 

[SIY]

What is the MAAAAAAAAJOR assumption I'm making?

That the reason for the preference is an actual sonic difference. Then with that assumption in hand, you're trying to come up with a mechanism. The assumption is dubious. Read the paper- these are really clever and well performed experiments to show why the preference likely exists and why you're chasing ghosts.

 

[board]

That the reason for the preference is an actual sonic difference. Then with that assumption in hand, you're trying to come up with a mechanism. The assumption is dubious. Read the paper- these are really clever and well performed experiments to show why the preference likely exists and why you're chasing ghosts.

I would say that the one making assumptions is you.

 

[pinger]

I think people want vinyl to sound better than digital. Its more fun. More tweaks and adjustments etc. Digital is really just plug and play. Thats no fun. Unless of course listening to music is your main desire

 

[Purité Audio]

The ‘hobby’ for many is the continual striving, the additions the tweaking the belief that they have added something particular themselves, when almost certainly they could have just bought decent measuring gear in the first place plug it in and listen to music.
( I suspect listening to music isn’t the prime consideration )
Keith

 

[BobbyTimmons]

The ‘hobby’ for many is the continual striving, the additions the tweaking the belief that they have added something particular themselves, when almost certainly they could have just bought decent measuring gear in the first place plug it in and listen to music.
( I suspect listening to music isn’t the prime consideration )
Keith

It's another type of creative expression.

 

[board]

It's certainly true that there are many non-audible attractions to vinyl, whether it's imagined "fun", as Pinger and Purité suggests, or it's very real physical attributes, such as looking at the big covers and the record spinning, as well as the visual beauty of tonearms, cartridges, plinths, etc.
None of that is audible, but there certainly also usually are audible differences between vinyl playback and digital, especially when you buy certain phono equipment, and some people choose vinyl for those reasons (along with the non-audible differences usually).

 

[mocenigo]

This might seem like a naive question but why can't someone (or some website like this one) record maybe 20 seconds of output of playing a series of "standard" tracks from a range of different DAC's and put these recordings online (in FLAC format) with no names associated. If the webpage was written cleverly it could even present different users with a different random order of DAC recordings (so as to not have the order influence or have some online collaboration try to influence the voting. Then after a few weeks the results could be gathered and presented back to the public? Surely this would provide a good indication that people can't tell the difference between DAC's?

I apologize for commenting to an old message, but I think that a negative result here would not be significant. Such a test would pass through TWO DACs, and therefore would be about the distinguishability of A+X+Y from B+X+Y (of more, like C, D, E, ...), where X is a fixed ADC and X it the tester's DACs. They may partially or totally mask differences between A and B (etc...). The fact that there would be several different Y's would mitigate this problem, but it would persist. It would be TWO additional steps in addition to the existing two represented by headamp and headphones.

 

[mocenigo]

I think people want vinyl to sound better than digital. Its more fun. More tweaks and adjustments etc. Digital is really just plug and play. Thats no fun. Unless of course listening to music is your main desire

Nah, same with digital. Less adjustments, perhaps, but you can replace the DAC, and add a DDC before it, and replace also that, and then there are USB filters, and mod one or more of these components with post-market power supplies, even if it may require invasive modifications to the original product.

I had a few discussionon a FB forum about DACs. People mod their DACs, say that an original D90 can sound marvellous but only if you replace some caps and opamps, and that it must have better SQ than the later models since they replaced the linear PS with a switching one, and so on. And of course a dCS DAC is technologically the top and does sound better as hundreds of audiophiles have confirmed. When I asked whether the tests were controlled, otherwise we know that they are unreliable, I was immediately marked as a "cultist" from ASR (I am not, I am in fact quite critical wrt some participants that come here only to check the SINAD table) that refuses evidence (when I asked for evidence) and insults quickly flew, I must be a frustrated (?) poor (I could easily purchase a pair of Magico M9 speakers with some change to spare do I qualify as poor?) "authistic" (that's ableistic) 70yo-or-something deaf person to claim those things. I just told the last one to grow a brain and left the group...

 

[ahofer]

Nah, sane with digital. Less adjustments, perhaps, but you can replace the DAC, and the DDC before it, and mod one or both with post-market power supplies, even if it may require modifications to the original product.

I had a few discussionon a FB forum about DACs. People mod their DACs, say that an original D90 can sound marvellous but only if you replace some caps and opamps, and that it must have better SQ than the later models since they replaced the linear PS with a switching one, and so on. And of course a dCS DAC is technologically the top and does sound better as hundreds of audiophiles have confirmed. When I asked whether the tests were controlled, otherwise we know that they are unreliable, I was immediately marked as a "cultist" from ASR (I am not, I am in fact quite critical wrt some participants that come here only to check the SINAD table) that refuses evidence (when I asked for evidence) and insults quickly flew, I must be a frustrated (?) poor (I could easily purchase a pair of Magico M9 speakers with some change to spare do I qualify as poor?) "authistic" (that's ableistic) 70yo-or-something deaf person to claim those things. I just told the last one to grow a brain and left the group...

Every Audiogon thread ever. If it’s any comfort, I think some of the participants might come to harbor doubt at a later date. But never right away.

 

[Mal]

I would love to. But if you read my original post the amp and DAC are gone, it was in home demo. When (if?) I get enough cash to buy the amp I will do everything what this group wants me to test. If someone lives in GTA they would be more than welcome to hear it themselves

Any neuroscientists in this forum?

What's happening in the brain of audiophiles in different encounters with equipment and other enthusiasts (blind, double-blind, and sighted...)?

Could your sub-conscious have decided "this is the amp!" for irrational reasons and gives you an endorphin spike when you turn it on?

You seem a very persuasive chap, might be passing your enthusiasm about the "magic amp" to your friends, consciously or sub-consciously?

It wouldn't be useful to get a GTA doubter to visit - unless he came equipped and ready to initiate a double-blind test

 

[antcollinet]

Any neuroscientists in this forum?

What's happening in the brain of audiophiles in different encounters with equipment and other enthusiasts (blind, double-blind, and sighted...)?

Could your sub-conscious have decided "this is the amp!" for irrational reasons and gives you an endorphin spike when you turn it on?

You seem a very persuasive chap, might be passing your enthusiasm about the "magic amp" to your friends, consciously or sub-consciously?

It wouldn't be useful to get a GTA doubter to visit - unless he came equipped and ready to initiate a double-blind test

That was a 2year old post you just replied to.

 

[Repentant subjectivist]

That was a 2year old post you just replied to.

Does that matter though? Topic seems as relevant as ever!

 

[antcollinet]

Does that matter though? Topic seems as relevant as ever!

Possibly not to the specifc person replied to and asked questions of.

 

[Mal]

I enjoyed reading the audiophile's post and had fun asking the question. That's enough for me. Though, if he responds, even better. It would be interesting to see if he ever got round to the double-blind tests of his magic amp.