DAC blind tests? EVER?

[tallbeardedone]

I’ve been searching near and far via google and can’t find any blind abx tests done on DACs with statistically significant results favoring one DAC over another.

Does anyone know of any? If so can you please paste a link. If one DAC can significantly improve sound quality of my 2-channel system I want to find it!

 

[Chrispy]

Go thru these? https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=abx+dac+tests+site:audiosciencereview.com&atb=v136-1&ia=web

ps haven't seen any thing where anyone can reliably tell differences among dacs, even of fairly different spec.

 

[Doodski]

I’ve been searching near and far via google and can’t find any blind abx tests done on DACs with statistically significant results favoring one DAC over another.

Does anyone know of any? If so can you please paste a link. If one DAC can significantly improve sound quality of my 2-channel system I want to find it!

The issue in that is that any decent DAC uncolored from maybe $100 and up sounds the same as any other decent uncolored DAC.

 

[gvl]

I’ve been searching near and far via google and can’t find any blind abx tests done on DACs with statistically significant results favoring one DAC over another.

You nailed it on the head.

 

[JSmith]

Does anyone know of any? If so can you please paste a link.

Most don't post their results... as they expected to hear differences and didn't;

DAC blind test: NO audible difference whatsoever

(UPDATES BELOW) That blind test was long due, it's now done. Started with a 30$ unit (Fiio) against a 3000$ one (Forssell) and once SPL-matched (massive gain difference), no one could tell the difference in a ABX test. Then, we switched to a different set-up, using a pair of B&W CM9 speakers...

www.diyaudio.com

JSmith

 

[Dunring]

The only difference is filters and colors if the Sinad is the same. I have soundblaster X1, an SMSL M300 with the AK4497, and a Sabaj Ad20 with a 9038pro. Volume matched with the same settings to defaults, I'd never be able to tell which is which. On the M300 changing filters and color does help customize it a little though. The balanced ones are best to just stay out of high gain more often. Many have tried blind tests, all studies I've seen have failed to identify it more than 50 percent of the time.

 

[Mowz]

I did volume matched blind with adi 2, newest bifrost 2, and modi 3e with multiple amps through ls50 meta and through a few pairs of headphones over several days but I couldn't tell them apart which was frustrating because I want to like the adi2 for more than its cool features and I want to like to bifrost since I bought the upgrade. Sounds great just like the $120 modi!

 

[beeface]

Reasonably priced, modern DACs have been measured extensively, with the results published in the public domain (largely thanks to @amirm).
Even with all of this data, there is still conjecture in the audio community that a $150 Topping or SMSL DAC will not sound as good as a more expensive DAC. "Distortion measurements don't tell the whole story", etc.
So we are now at a point where I believe controlled blind comparative tests of DACs would be the best thing to help improve the audio community's understanding of DACs.

I know that performing these tests properly is resource intensive, so I appreciate why they aren't commonly conducted. I certainly don't have the knowledge or resources to volunteer to do such a test myself.
Still. I personally think that there would be more value in a single blind test comprising 5 or more popular DACs at different price points than another 50 individual DAC tests. There is merit in having measurements for as many products as possible, but at this point I think what the broader audio community really needs is a better understanding of how these measurements translate to what is actually heard.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Reasonably priced, modern DACs have been measured extensively, with the results published in the public domain (largely thanks to @amirm).
Even with all of this data, there is still conjecture in the audio community that a $150 Topping or SMSL DAC will not sound as good as a more expensive DAC. "Distortion measurements don't tell the whole story", etc.
So we are now at a point where I believe controlled blind comparative tests of DACs would be the best thing to help improve the audio community's understanding of DACs.

I know that performing these tests properly is resource intensive, so I appreciate why they aren't commonly conducted. I certainly don't have the knowledge or resources to volunteer to do such a test myself.
Still. I personally think that there would be more value in a single blind test comprising 5 or more popular DACs at different price points than another 50 individual DAC tests. There is merit in having measurements for as many products as possible, but at this point I think what the broader audio community really needs is a better understanding of how these measurements translate to what is actually heard.

As you said, it costs money. And that no one does it, is already pretty telling, because when people are asked to invest money, most of them get rational pretty quickly.

People want to invest where the likelihood is the highest, that some kind of meaningful or new result or a return can be expected. This is not the case with DACs.

It’s like spending money to prove the earth is round. Just because some die hards still believe it is flat, just doesn’t make it a good investment of research money.

Edit. Typo.

 

[Mnyb]

As you said, it costs money. And that no one does it, is already pretty telling, because when people are asked to invest money, most of them get rational pretty quickly.

People want to invest where the likelihood is the highest that some kind of meaningful or new result or a return can be expected. This is not the case with DACs.

It’s like spending money to proof the earth is round. Just because some die hards still believe it is flat, just doesn’t make it a good investment of research money.

+1

DAC's can be seen as a subset of other small signal electronics . If you take any device that has completely flat fr response 20-20kHz very low noise and very low distortion and not much out of band junk what do one expect as a result ? It will be very very similar to other such devices .

 

[Jeromeof]

This might seem like a naive question but why can't someone (or some website like this one) record maybe 20 seconds of output of playing a series of "standard" tracks from a range of different DAC's and put these recordings online (in FLAC format) with no names associated. If the webpage was written cleverly it could even present different users with a different random order of DAC recordings (so as to not have the order influence or have some online collaboration try to influence the voting. Then after a few weeks the results could be gathered and presented back to the public? Surely this would provide a good indication that people can't tell the difference between DAC's?

 

[gvl]

Archmago had some samples, eg:

Archimago's Musical Performance Track (AMPT): Standard test track for listener evaluation of source playback. [RME ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, Topping D10s, D10 Balanced, TEAC UD-501, Squeezebox Touch recordings.] Loss of RMAF, Bluetooth aptX Lossless. PS: To

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[kemmler3D]

I think if you want to find audible differences between DACs your best bet is to find one with a much higher noise floor than another, then do an ABX listening test with an extremely high dynamic range track that's mostly really quiet, but also recorded recently and released in a good digital format (so the recording will have very low noise.) Crank up the gain, and maybe you could pick them apart.

Other than that, I rate the odds of anyone successfully telling DACs apart as extremely low.

 

[Chrispy]

I’ve been searching near and far via google and can’t find any blind abx tests done on DACs with statistically significant results favoring one DAC over another.

Does anyone know of any? If so can you please paste a link. If one DAC can significantly improve sound quality of my 2-channel system I want to find it!

As long as you believe that dac exists, you can keep the myth alive!

 

[Alexium]

This topic is interesting to me as well. I once did a thorough comparison of PCM2704, EMU 0404 USB, and a DIY AD1855 or AD1862 DACs (don't remember which AD chip, the unit was kindly loaned to me). I used Hifiman HE-400 and Dunu DN-1000 headphones. And I didn't even need to be "blind" to know I can't hear any difference, even with the USB-powered PCM2704 which had, like, 10 parts on the PCB (all of them passive) other than the DAC chip.

Much more recently, I have bought and repaired two broken CD players, Kenwood DP-7030 and Pioneer S602. Since I had to disassemble and repair both, read the schematics etc., it was very obvious that the Kenwood unit is engineered way better in every regard, both the mechanics and the DAC. Kenwood weighs twice as much, too. I did A/B comparison by spinning two copies of the same CD I filled with the most "audiophile" tracks I know, and I switched back and forth with a special relay-based signal switcher device I made just for this case: two sets of RCA inputs, a tumbler controlling 4 separate relays with a single contact group each, one RCA output. Listened through the line output of the CDs - O2 headphone amp - HE-400. Also no difference.

One time I did hear a difference and got very excited, but it turned out I switched L and R accidentally on one unit and not the other. Since my CD starts with complex electronic tracks, it was hard to spot the problem by ear.

 

[Dmitriy]

This topic is interesting to me as well. I once did a thorough comparison of PCM2704, EMU 0404 USB, and a DIY AD1855 or AD1862 DACs (don't remember which AD chip, the unit was kindly loaned to me). I used Hifiman HE-400 and Dunu DN-1000 headphones. And I didn't even need to be "blind" to know I can't hear any difference, even with the USB-powered PCM2704 which had, like, 10 parts on the PCB (all of them passive) other than the DAC chip.

Much more recently, I have bought and repaired two broken CD players, Kenwood DP-7030 and Pioneer S602. Since I had to disassemble and repair both, read the schematics etc., it was very obvious that the Kenwood unit is engineered way better in every regard, both the mechanics and the DAC. Kenwood weighs twice as much, too. I did A/B comparison by spinning two copies of the same CD I filled with the most "audiophile" tracks I know, and I switched back and forth with a special relay-based signal switcher device I made just for this case: two sets of RCA inputs, a tumbler controlling 4 separate relays with a single contact group each, one RCA output. Listened through the line output of the CDs - O2 headphone amp - HE-400. Also no difference.

One time I did hear a difference and got very excited, but it turned out I switched L and R accidentally on one unit and not the other. Since my CD starts with complex electronic tracks, it was hard to spot the problem by ear.

I think an audiophile will tell you that you did everything wrong, because all the sound disappears in the relay and becomes the same and muddy, loses the stage and other stuff
P.S. I hope the auto-translation is correct from what I wrote

 

[DVDdoug]

This might seem like a naive question but why can't someone (or some website like this one) record maybe 20 seconds of output of playing a series of "standard" tracks from a range of different DAC's and put these recordings online (in FLAC format) with no names associated. If the webpage was written cleverly it could even present different users with a different random order of DAC recordings (so as to not have the order influence or have some online collaboration try to influence the voting.

The listener would be adding his own DAC to the chain. It probably wouldn't make any difference in the results but the "audiophiles" would complain...

 

[Alexium]

The listener would be adding his own DAC to the chain. It probably wouldn't make any difference in the results but the "audiophiles" would complain...

It would add its own distortion, but that would be the same for all measured products. In fact, I think the only proper way to test DACs is indeed with ADC, just like Amir does - with FFT and other measurements.

 

[Alexium]

I think an audiophile will tell you that you did everything wrong, because all the sound disappears in the relay and becomes the same and muddy, loses the stage and other stuff
P.S. I hope the auto-translation is correct from what I wrote

Yes, you're absolutely right! My relays are not from an audiophile brand, neither are my RCA cables (in fact, I made half of them myself from a shielded microphone cable). I didn't even check the power plug polarity in the wall socket.

Seriously, there are so many people discussing how DAC model A is more "transparent" and "airy" than DAC model B, and how "hi-res" is better than CD, and how heaphone cables matter a great deal (not even line level cables - headphone cables! And USB cables!). It is mind boggling to think that all of them are wasting hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars caring about things that they think exist but actually do not. And yet, I have done my best to try and find any confirmation that any of those audiophile claims have merit. I have in good faith tried to hear any of that, and I couldn't. So I do believe all those people are 99% wrong, certainly when it comes to DACs and low power (headphone) amplifiers.

 

[akosinskiy]

In order to be able to reliably hear the difference between DACs your system has to be very resolving.
You can get more by upgrading amp than DAC. I have a decent DAC NAD M51 and Cary Audio 200W amp and was thinking that my system sounds very good - speakers disappearing, pinpointing instruments etc.
Got in-home demo of one amp and DAC. I tried to hook up DAC first and switched back and force. I could hear the difference but it was very minimal and I won't be able to tell surely in blind test which one is which. But after I switched the amp everything changed drastically. There was no need for any kind of blind test, it was like there was a wall between me and the instruments and now it is gone, they were playing next to me in my room. And you don't have to play it loud anymore to enjoy the sound-stage and all the details. I would say that it could be enjoyed minus 5-10 DBs compared to what I'm used to.
After that switching DACs was much more apparent, new DAC was making everything even more 3D and naturally sounding than mine. NAD was still fine, it's just it was easy to tell the difference. I would say that DAC did about 15-20% more on top of what switching amps made. I called a few folks so they can hear what I was hearing; it was rare opportunity to experience real music. Blind test was easily passed by all inexperienced and experienced listeners.
So if people say that there is no difference between DACs it's just their speakers and amps are not resolving enough. As a reference point - that amp is 35k CAD and for now I won't be able to afford it. I tried couple of others high-end amps since and none of them sounded like that. I know, it is ridiculous, you can buy a car for that money but once you heard it there is no way back Starting to save $$$...