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DAC audible differences are finally proven with ABX?

A: @Josh83 could also distinguish between other DACs. If ONLY the D90 would be distinguishable it could make sense to investigate the polarity as a possible reason but that wasn't the case.
B: output buffer circuits are usually all 'signal followers' 1x.
C: even if the buffer would be inverting (-1x) which is highly unlikely then polarity would still be correct if the - signal were input.

The ABX box is very likely not to blame here despite not being blameless.
The distortion the box does add would be equal for both DACs if... at least both A and B input were attenuated and the signal thus passes though the attenuator.
A question could be whether or not the volume setting change settling-time during switching is always faster than the 'mute' during switching (the always present 'tick') but reckon the settling speed is not an issue as relays aren't fast switching anyway (mechanical component).
If the 'softest' DAC is not attenuated AND the louder one was attenuated then it is possible (not proven until tested) that the 'loudest one' would have had a bit more distortion added.
Seeing the null results in the follow-up and looking at the linear scale between 1Hz and 20kHz we see around -100dB difference and that could mean 0.001% distortion which is inaudible. BUT this null is between A and B and actual distortion (because it is the same and thus won't show in a null as it is common) could well be much higher.
Alas it seems we need to see if Erin (@hardisj) at some point does a distortion measurement and verifies what the attenuator does.
It would be interesting to know how much distortion the attenuator adds and what the spectrum of that distortion is.
This would give some info about Erin's box (which is the same type).
It is not likely in Josh's advantage to post recordings nor measure distortion.
The relays, ground loops, etc are most likely not the issues.

As annoying as it is it seems Josh was able to ace the test by looking at minute audible differences between the different DACs in specific parts of a song.
It was not about an obvious 'sound signature difference' that the better hearing people are always on about.
We know not all DACs measure exactly the same (if only because of the filters) but let's face it.
Josh used 96kHz files which means any reconstruction filter issues would have been around 45-50kHz so would not be an issue.
Likewise for the up-sampled 44.1 file as that would have a around 20kHz difference that would be equal in both DACs and would treat that the same at it would be well withing the audible band.

Until someone repeats it or the test by Josh was redone and checked by a witness as well as witnessed all that can be done is either dismiss it because not all is known or see this as one of the rare 'positives' that took many, many attempts and training over months to detect.

Personally I would like to have seen a THD measurement, attenuated and not attenuated (which could potentially differ a bit) and a recording with the 2 most differing DACs while switching between DACs.
Not going to happen I'm afraid (not in Josh's interest nor intention) so best to accept the results for what they are.

No one will argue that some amps can not sound different or that speakers/headphones/microphones/instruments/recording(masters) and vinyl cartridges as well as tape can not sound different enough to be audible.
Just like that it is equally understandable that reconstruction filters (around 22.05kHz) can be different enough for young folks to be audibly different and that there are DACs that are purpose made to 'sound' different.
This makes this whole discussion test interesting but looks like we won't get to the bottom of the how and why... alas.
Yes I am only looking at possible checks to do. 5/7 was with the Matrix RCA out as “ref”. There was no reciprocal results between the challenger DACs shown. It is an easy test to show waveform between in and output of the test setup between the Matrix and a challnger dac.
 
If it's a nonlinearity, it's signal-correlated, so if it's not in the THD or IMD, where is it?
I'm not sure if I got the premise correctly, but here it goes.

Let's start with 2-tone signal at 48k sampling rate:
input.png


When we upsample by putting samples with value 0 between the original samples, then 1) our base-band level is reduced by 6 dB and 2) we get mirror images:
orig.samples.png


For our between-samples to do their job correctly, they need to produce 1) the same base-band level and 2) the mirror images that are in the opposite phase:
between.samples.png


so that when we add them together, then 1) we get the original level of the base-band and 2) the images cancel out:
all.samples.png


If we add some non-linear distortion (HD, IMD) only to the between-samples:
between.samples.distort.png


then we'll get this distortion in the final signal too:
all.samples.distort.png
 
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Also, I read pages back where a member tried saying something to the effect that for others to replicate an experimental outcome the parameters do not need to be verbatim...and that is just so laughably incorrect. Same goes for a few other research-related assertions they and a few other people have made in here.

Sorry. Just slightly irked at how confidently wrong people can be in society lately even when presented with evidence to the contrary. Especially when that information is coming from established experts.
ruh-roh.
Given my (erstwhile) day job -- I hope I wasn't one of 'em! :facepalm:
 
I'm not sure if I got the premise correctly, but here it goes.

Let's start with 2-tone signal at 48k sampling rate:
View attachment 548607

When we upsample by putting samples with value 0 between the original samples, then 1) our base-band level is reduced by 6 dB and 2) we get mirror images:
View attachment 548608

For our between-samples to do their job correctly, they need to produce 1) the same base-band level and 2) the mirror images that are in the opposite phase:
View attachment 548609

so that when we add them together, then 1) we get the original level of the base-band and 2) the images cancel out:
View attachment 548610

If we add some non-linear distortion (HD, IMD) only to the between-samples:
View attachment 548611

then we'll get this distortion in the final signal too:
View attachment 548612
Hmm, I see... thanks for laying that out. But how on earth would this happen in a real DAC? The idea that an oversampled signal would have nonlinearities that apply uniquely to the interpolated samples is new to me. Am I understanding this right?
 
Close to impossible with a valid digital signal.
 
You would have to ask one of the mods (and tag them) AND make sure that whenever new, accurate and relevant info can be added the one willing to add this info must contact the admin to open the thread up again otherwise it would stay closed forever.
@RickS @amirm

Carry on thanks. Amir has been more involved and is in better position to disposition. :cool:
 
Forgive me if I missed if this was answered previously:

Did he (Josh) have someone setup two or more of the same exact DAC's without any other DAC model/brand connected and without his knowledge of what was connected so that as he carried out his protocol for a round of testing he would always be hearing the same DAC? Essentially he goes to do what he thinks is a normal round of various different DAC's connected but in reality it is just two (or more) of the same exact model he is switching between.
 
Forgive me if I missed if this was answered previously:

Did he (Josh) have someone setup two or more of the same exact DAC's without any other DAC model/brand connected and without his knowledge of what was connected so that as he carried out his protocol for a round of testing he would always be hearing the same DAC? Essentially he goes to do what he thinks is a normal round of various different DAC's connected but in reality it is just two (or more) of the same exact model he is switching between.
This was suggested for further testing and Josh is aware of the suggestion. That's about it. He did not do it for the published results.
 
This was suggested for further testing and Josh is aware of the suggestion. That's about it. He did not do it for the published results.
Thanks.

Yea, that is a very important control to carry out. Really surprised he didn't do it (unless he did and just forgot to properly disclose) considering all the other effort he put in.
I get that this isn't a serious publication of data like I am used to with my research but proper controls make or break valid results.
 
Yea, that is a very important control to carry out. Really surprised he didn't do it (unless he did and just forgot to properly disclose) considering all the other effort he put in.
I get that this isn't a serious publication of data like I am used to with my research but proper controls make or break valid results.
And that's the point. The study is officially discredited no matter how much work he did.
 
I believe the whole idea of the ABX tester was that he would not need someone else to assist with the testing over a long period and could test alone whenever he felt like it.
It also looks like it wasn't done to provide proof for either party but that it was for his own curiosity over a period of weeks with plenty practice time.
That's what I got from the article and threads here and there.
Josh seems like a genuine guy interested in good sound.

Now people demand the test to be redone in a 'definitive' proof kind of way, which is not really possible without witnessing and many more controls.
Witnessed, measured, max. control, verified etc. and as that all needs to be done with others this would add time pressure and he needs to get it right in one attempt of 16.
And all of this a few times with a few DACs.
IMO this is a recipe for failure and if that is the goal that would probably succeed.
I have done a few blind tests with no and extremely small differences and it is anything but fun to do, especially under pressure of having to perform.

The only interesting thing that might help his case would be:
Supply a test file (at least 30 sec) and a recordings of the switched output via 2 different DACs that have been level matched in the way he did before.
Also would be great if he were to record a 1kHz (-3db) tone of the 'best performing' DAC directly from the DAC and once via the switchbox.

This all would take him less than half an hour of his time and he could have his setup verified.
I totally get why Josh would not be interested in providing these files or repeating it all.

One can simply ignore the results based on missing info and controls and independent checking or embrace the idea that even considered good sounding DACs (that sound very similar in normal circumstances) can possibly be identified audibly. All of this without knowing much of the actual testing.
 
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I totally get why Josh would not be interested in providing these files.
He shouldn't have bothered if he didn't want the scrutiny.
 
In all fairness Josh did not seek scrutiny and did not post his findings here.
O.P. found it over at AS and asked the question 'if the proof was really there'.

Obviously nothing was proven for a fact other than that some controls and information is missing.
For the intended forum AS and CA the results are 'as always thought'.

It is what it is.. a storm in a glass of water. Lack of controls and evidence. Not ASR worthy and also not posted here.
 
Thanks.

Yea, that is a very important control to carry out. Really surprised he didn't do it (unless he did and just forgot to properly disclose) considering all the other effort he put in.
I get that this isn't a serious publication of data like I am used to with my research but proper controls make or break valid results.
It's certainly a good way to control for the impact (if any) of the switcher in this study!
 
In all fairness Josh did not seek scrutiny and did not post his findings here.
No valid data, no useful data are available. It is all pointless. A discussion for discussion, with no outcome. A storm in a glass of water is exactly what came to my mind this morning. But what would we expect ….
 
Well the thread did lead to a more general discussion of ABX testers and proposed tests to ensure a higher reliability and what would be needed/required for reporting if the results would have to pass as more than plausible.
And it kept quite a few keyboard warriors busy and thinking about what would be involved to make it ASR worthy. :D
 
... discussion for discussion, with no outcome. A storm in a glass of water is exactly what came to my mind this morning. But what would we expect ….

Indeed I was often wondering why many ASR members were genuinely trying to get more info, even though it was clear from the start it couldn't be produced.
To me the major takeaway is that ASR is NOT close-minded about such tests and gives them a chance. The premise that all ASR members dismiss the possibility of DACs sounding different was proven ridiculously wrong.
And personally I've never heard anyone in ASR claim that all DACs sound the same, just that if they measure the same, they'll sound the same...
 
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