DAC and headphones for editing classical live digital music recordings on Windows PC

[massimodec]

Hi everybody !
I am new here and in the PC-DAC-Headphones line of work.
I have seen many answers here and I have some orientations, but still there are some parts unclear to me.
I am dealing with live classical music, which I am recording for friends (for demos, documentation etc.) in Linear-PCM.
I would need to make some little balancing, little adjustements or equalization, when performance hall would show some bias or similar.
So - without selling a kidney - I would need to set a very neutral audio working line, from a Windows 7 PC (which I have) to some pretty good - and flat - headphones.
Question 1: as headphones I was thinking of Grado 325x, but I am open to suggestions of course.
Are they really flat? No artificial enhancing of bass ? no “cozy” and mellow general artificial tones?
If the recorded tone is harsh or too dry, to try to compensate it, I have to be able to hear it.
Question 2: for my purposes, I think that it could be better to extract digital from the PC and use an external DAC to convert and listen. Which DAC should I buy ? 24 and/or 32 bits ?
In answers to similar questions, I have seen quoting Topping G5 and Sabaj A20d: the latter looks attractive, but a bit expensive... moreover, I live in Italy and I will be smashed by import fees, which are about 28% over price + shipping.
Thank you very much for your help.

 

[Dunring]

The Sennheiser HD600 are ideal, but the DT880 250 ohm Beyerdynamic are much less expensive and I like them a lot. Creative labs just sent a Sound blaster X1 and it sounds great, and powers the 600 ohm dt880 to loud volume so for $59 it's simple if you don't want a whole stack.
I use the X1 and DT770 250 ohm for my daily driver and really having fun with it.

 

[DVDdoug]

The pros will tell you not to use headphones as audio monitors. But some people do and as long as you have halfway decent headphones the don't have to be "great" as long as you can learn what a good mix sounds like on your headphones.

You probably don't need a high-end DAC. And you certainly don't need a 32-bit DAC since 16-bits is generally better than human hearing. 24-bits is fine and your final release probably won't be 32-bits.. And of course, the DAC only affects what you are hearing so it doesn't affect the quality of your production unless it's so bad that you make bad decisions and mess up the sound (unlikely).

Here are a couple of excerpts from Recording Magazine that I "collected". The first is from Readers Submissions where people send-in their home productions:

As those of you who have followed this column for any length of time can attest, headphone mixing is one of the big no-no's around these parts. In our humble opinion, headphone mixes do not translate well in the real world, period, end of story. Other than checking for balance issues and the occasional hunting down of little details, they are tools best left for the tracking process.

And this is from a mixing engineer who moves from studio-to-studio and he uses headphones for consistency:

Can I mix on headphones?

No. But in all seriousness, headphones can be a secret weapon and it really doesn’t matter what they sound like…

Over time, after constantly listening back to my work from different studios on those headphones I really started to learn them. They became sort of a compass. Wherever I went… It became a pattern for me to reference these headphones to see if what I was hearing was “right”…

I learned them, I knew them, I trusted them. It didn’t matter whether or not I loved them…

So, can you mix on headphones? Probably. I just think you really need to put some time into learning them first…

Mark Hornsby
Recording Magazine, March 2020

 

[massimodec]

Thank you Dunring and DVDdoug !
Useful and good roadmap for me to go !

 

[massimodec]

The Sennheiser HD600 are ideal, but the DT880 250 ohm Beyerdynamic are much less expensive and I like them a lot. Creative labs just sent a Sound blaster X1 and it sounds great, and powers the 600 ohm dt880 to loud volume so for $59 it's simple if you don't want a whole stack.
I use the X1 and DT770 250 ohm for my daily driver and really having fun with it.

Hi.
I was looking around for a Sound blaster X review, because I could be worried that its internal amp could affect the flatness of the well known DT880...
You said you are using the combination for editing ? or just for listening ?
And: is it an USB digital converter of the original digital audio files ?
In the sense is it not a PC line amplifier of PC headphone line... already converted by the PC I mean..
Moreover: do you know if does it work on Windows 7 ?
Thank you

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Hi everybody !
I am new here and in the PC-DAC-Headphones line of work.
I have seen many answers here and I have some orientations, but still there are some parts unclear to me.
I am dealing with live classical music, which I am recording for friends (for demos, documentation etc.) in Linear-PCM.
I would need to make some little balancing, little adjustements or equalization, when performance hall would show some bias or similar.
So - without selling a kidney - I would need to set a very neutral audio working line, from a Windows 7 PC (which I have) to some pretty good - and flat - headphones.
Question 1: as headphones I was thinking of Grado 325x, but I am open to suggestions of course.
Are they really flat? No artificial enhancing of bass ? no “cozy” and mellow general artificial tones?
If the recorded tone is harsh or too dry, to try to compensate it, I have to be able to hear it.
Question 2: for my purposes, I think that it could be better to extract digital from the PC and use an external DAC to convert and listen. Which DAC should I buy ? 24 and/or 32 bits ?
In answers to similar questions, I have seen quoting Topping G5 and Sabaj A20d: the latter looks attractive, but a bit expensive... moreover, I live in Italy and I will be smashed by import fees, which are about 28% over price + shipping.
Thank you very much for your help.

I second what dunring said. Personally I use the HD560S but they are a bit bright and either have to EQ them (eg APOEQ with Peace) or just be careful on you low frequency balance.

Any modern audio interface will do the job and be neutral sounding. MOTU measures really well. I use Focusrite 4i4 with Ableton Live Suite. However modern DAWs take up some CPU power which might cause problems in your case. Try it however and if you don’t need live playback with short latencies it might just work.

 

[markanini]

Firstly I will suggest a pair of monitor speakers as your main tool, and where the money is best spent. Few people have luck with track balance and EQ on headphones translating.

Secondly I will go against the grain and suggest a closed back headphone. Because rumble causes havoc on reproduction systems and only closed backs reveal flaws like that. A super common issue on acoustic recordings. If you will have any use for headphones this is it. AKG K371 is a good model headphone if you have luck with the fit.

A DAC does zero for recording quality. Look for an audio interface with a high gain range and low SNR specs if you care about that, especially for the mic inputs.

 

[Robin L]

I used to record classical music and relied on Stax "Earspeakers" for post-production. Wouldn't call what I was doing "mixing", but there was a lot of editing work, headphones were a definite help. Also, most of my recording was recording of live performances, so hauling in a pair of speakers was not practical.

I'd recommend Drop 6XX headphones and the Topping E/L30 DAC/headphone amp combo for driving the headphones. Plenty transparent, physically comfortable, won't break the bank. If you're going to edit, headphones can come in mighty handy.

 

[massimodec]

Firstly I will suggest a pair of monitor speakers as your main tool, and where the money is best spent. Few people have luck with track balance and EQ on headphones translating.

Secondly I will go against the grain and suggest a closed back headphone. Because rumble causes havoc on reproduction systems and only closed backs reveal flaws like that. A super common issue on acoustic recordings. If you will have any use for headphones this is it. AKG K371 is a good model headphone if you have luck with the fit.

A DAC does zero for recording quality. Look for an audio interface with a high gain range and low SNR specs if you care about that, especially for the mic inputs.

Thank you Markanini.
Yes, monitor speakers are the usual way... but maybe I was not good in explaining.
My line of job has to be light: for instance I do not have an isolated studio, but at home, in the city... that's why headphones could be more useful.
I have to be light in recording too: I use a very good, but small PCM device during concerts with the audience.

Only direct live performances of small ensembles or cello or violin and piano etc.
Two mikes with no mixer, no anything.

Then I take the PCM Wav files on a PC and I have to make small adjustments, i.e. some balancing if channels are too different, some correction on "ambient" in case of harsh concert halls, some equalization in case of resonances... things like that.
So I need a good way to listen in headphones waht I have recorded.
For a good listening of the recording I have made, -not for recording - avoiding PC sound, I was thinking of a DAC+Headphones amplifier, to extract digital files directely via USB, and operate with this light post-production.

I have seen that all those small DACs are designed mostly for videogamers, hence they boost bass, surround, Extra-punch etc.
In a Prokofiev sonata for 2 violins those thinks are nuisances...
So I am asking for indications on your knowledge of the most neutral elements in the whole chain... without spending too much.
Dunring here above suggested Sound blaster X1, which is pretty new. I have seen a guide, and it is well focused on Bass, Surround and alike...
It says that if you set Off on the effects, also the SFX effect , to go back to "natural"...
Thanky ou

 

[markanini]

Thank you Markanini.
Yes, monitor speakers are the usual way... but maybe I was not good in explaining.
My line of job has to be light: for instance I do not have an isolated studio, but at home, in the city... that's why headphones could be more useful.
I have to be light in recording too: I use a very good, but small PCM device during concerts with the audience.

Only direct live performances of small ensembles or cello or violin and piano etc.
Two mikes with no mixer, no anything.

Then I take the PCM Wav files on a PC and I have to make small adjustments, i.e. some balancing if channels are too different, some correction on "ambient" in case of harsh concert halls, some equalization in case of resonances... things like that.
So I need a good way to listen in headphones waht I have recorded.
For a good listening of the recording I have made, -not for recording - avoiding PC sound, I was thinking of a DAC+Headphones amplifier, to extract digital files directely via USB, and operate with this light post-production.

I have seen that all those small DACs are designed mostly for videogamers, hence they boost bass, surround, Extra-punch etc.
In a Prokofiev sonata for 2 violins those thinks are nuisances...
So I am asking for indications on your knowledge of the most neutral elements in the whole chain... without spending too much.
Dunring here above suggested Sound blaster X1, which is pretty new. I have seen a guide, and it is well focused on Bass, Surround and alike...
It says that if you set Off on the effects, also the SFX effect , to go back to "natural"...
Thanky ou

I understand that finding a good room is a challenge. At the same time, If you have access to a rectangular room you can place a pair of speakers against the front wall in a equilateral triangle and it will separate the speakers from the room to an extent. Combine that with some well extend headphones and you will have the tools needed for achieving basically pro results. Maybe rent some monitor speakers for a weekend to test it out if you don't want to commit right away.

I'm sure the PCM recorder is fine. Rumble is the main issue, it's inherent to acoustic recordings, built-in mics or $2000 Neumans, all will pick up some unwanted low frequencies that need to be filtered manually.

You can choose you DAC by the features you need, spend no more than $200 at this point. Focusrite is a well regarded brand.

 

[massimodec]

The Sennheiser HD600 are ideal, but the DT880 250 ohm Beyerdynamic are much less expensive and I like them a lot. Creative labs just sent a Sound blaster X1 and it sounds great, and powers the 600 ohm dt880 to loud volume so for $59 it's simple if you don't want a whole stack.
I use the X1 and DT770 250 ohm for my daily driver and really having fun with it.

Hi.
Thank you for your X1 indication. I've seen some specifications and user manual: There are many controls to enhance basses and other...
It looks like a typical gamers device
Is it possibile to have it "neutral", without affecting general sound color ? to say: is it good for editing classical music ?
Thanks

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Hi.
Thank you for your X1 indication. I've seen some specifications and user manual: There are many controls to enhance basses and other...
It looks like a typical gamers device
Is it possibile to have it "neutral", without affecting general sound color ? to say: is it good for editing classical music ?
Thanks

See my comment above. I can only recommend to invest in an audio interface dedicated to the task and not a „gamer“ device. MOTU or Focusrite provide many entrylevel devices from which to choose depending on budget and requirements.
All interface well with the major DAW softwares and have relatively low noise mic/line preamps , which is essential to get good recordings.

 

[massimodec]

See my comment above. I can only recommend to invest in an audio interface dedicated to the task and not a „gamer“ device. MOTU or Focusrite provide many entrylevel devices from which to choose depending on budget and requirements.
All interface well with the major DAW softwares and have relatively low noise mic/line preamps , which is essential to get good recordings.

Thank you. Yes: your words are the reason I am still looking around.
But my need is not in recording, but in editing wav files, to slightly adjust things like halls sonic attitudes or problems, i.e. too dry, fans rumble, inequal resonances equalization etc.
So I need a totally "neutral" way to listen, to be able to evaluate recording status, and of course, to evaluate my small interpolations.
The recording phase is a "Mercury kind": two or three mics close to the ensemble, to record THEIR chosen way of delivery.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Thank you. Yes: your words are the reason I am still looking around.
But my need is not in recording, but in editing wav files, to slightly adjust things like halls sonic attitudes or problems, i.e. too dry, fans rumble, inequal resonances equalization etc.
So I need a totally "neutral" way to listen, to be able to evaluate recording status, and of course, to evaluate my small interpolations.
The recording phase is a "Mercury kind": two or three mics close to the ensemble, to record THEIR chosen way of delivery.

Understand. What DAW are you using?
(I use Ableton, but others are equally good)

 

[massimodec]

Understand. What DAW are you using?
(I use Ableton, but others are equally good)

Nothing special, since I am not "building" anything: just 2 channels stereo, and a Wavelab or similar.
I have a Z600 PC with 2 double processors Xeon X5650, 24 cores, 32 GB RAM, 64 bit.
When I was into the field, '80s of previous century, for complex tasks, I was working with fully equipped studios...
As I would do now, if necessary.
But in live concerts I hate to seed forests of mikes all over the floor of musicians, and go crazy with levels and equalizations for violins,cellos, double bass, brasses, woodswinds etc...
The director makes all the adjustments to deliver a perfectly blended and leveled sound.
So I place my PCM Linear stereo recorder at the point of the triangle, and that's all...

 

[andymcbain]

HD650s with Sonarworks and Goodhertz Canopener plugins would be my preference here

SoundID Reference - Speaker & Headphone Calibration

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CanOpener Studio, by Goodhertz

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goodhertz.com

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Nothing special, since I am not "building" anything: just 2 channels stereo, and a Wavelab or similar.
I have a Z600 PC with 2 double processors Xeon X5650, 24 cores, 32 GB RAM, 64 bit.
When I was into the field, '80s of previous century, for complex tasks, I was working with fully equipped studios...
As I would do now, if necessary.
But in live concerts I hate to seed forests of mikes all over the floor of musicians, and go crazy with levels and equalizations for violins,cellos, double bass, brasses, woodswinds etc...
The director makes all the adjustments to deliver a perfectly blended and leveled sound.
So I place my PCM Linear stereo recorder at the point of the triangle, and that's all...

Interesting. Got it. So you don’t need to mix and master different tracks etc.

For this, any decent (see review index here) will do. Probably even the aforementioned „gamer“ soundcard. Most modern stuff is at a level which is quasi transparent (not adding coloration) and the headsphones are the ones which contribute 99.9% to the sound. (BTW. There is a thread somewhere here and a YouTube Video by Julian Krause showing the fidelity of windows audio - the message is: it is much much better than its reputation and people would not hear a difference in controlled tests).

 

[massimodec]

Interesting. Got it. So you don’t need to mix and master different tracks etc.

For this, any decent (see review index here) will do. Probably even the aforementioned „gamer“ soundcard. Most modern stuff is at a level which is quasi transparent (not adding coloration) and the headsphones are the ones which contribute 99.9% to the sound. (BTW. There is a thread somewhere here and a YouTube Video by Julian Krause showing the fidelity of windows audio - the message is: it is much much better than its reputation and people would not hear a difference in controlled tests).

Ach ! I'll take a look