DAC Advice Needed

[sawacs]

I am struggling with making a decision on a stand alone DAC.

Having just purchased a Bluesound Node 2i, I am not too impressed with the sound quality. However, I do really enjoy the streaming app so I plan on keeping the Node for that reason alone.

The only other DAC I have to compare the Node to is the CXN v2, which I returned because it would not unfold Tidal MQA files.

Regarding sound quality, the CXN-V2 sounded amazing and in some ways I regret returning it.

What would be a good recommendation for a stand alone DAC that would equal or exceed the sound quality of the CXN-V2 ?

I am looking very closely at the Topping D90 SE but there are so many choices.

System:
X4700h
Focal 826-D Speakers
Focal Center
2 SVS SB-2000 Subs
Emotiva XPA-3 Amp
Blue Sound Node 2i

Current Runners Up

Purchase another CXN-v2
Topping D90se
Gustard X26 pro

The stand alone DAC is the last piece to the puzzle that will render the home theatre build complete for years to come.... fingers crossed.

Advice would be appreciated!

Sawacs

 

[Wino]

I have the Holo Audio May KTE and the Gustard X26 Pro. I like them both very much. I have not heard the Topping D90, but it seems well regarded.

 

[Berwhale]

What would be a good recommendation for a stand alone DAC that would equal or exceed the sound quality of the CXN-V2 ?

Why do you need a separate DAC? You can take the optical out the Node 2i straight into the X4700h. There is no point adding an expensive DAC as you can only gain 2dB of SINAD...

"We see that (analogue in) performance is a couple of dBs better than Toslink indicating the ultimate limit of the analog buffer/volume control/gain stage. Not a great news but does allow us to run the amplifier tests with analog input, telling us its best case performance."

Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

This is a second review of the Denon AVR-X4700 AVR. It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me. It costs US $1,700 from Amazon including free shipping. I will explain the reason for the revision in a bit. For now, I will cut and paste some of the information from the first...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[sawacs]

Why do you need a separate DAC? You can take the optical out the Node 2i straight into the X4700h. There is no point adding an expensive DAC as you can only gain 2dB of SINAD...

"We see that (analogue in) performance is a couple of dBs better than Toslink indicating the ultimate limit of the analog buffer/volume control/gain stage. Not a great news but does allow us to run the amplifier tests with analog input, telling us its best case performance."

Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

This is a second review of the Denon AVR-X4700 AVR. It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me. It costs US $1,700 from Amazon including free shipping. I will explain the reason for the revision in a bit. For now, I will cut and paste some of the information from the first...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Right now, I am running analog out of the Node 2i and into the Denon 4700. Are you saying I should run an optical instead of the analog connection?

To my ears, the CXN-v2 has sounded better than the Denon alone or through the Node 2i. Hard to explain but the sound quality just isn't there.

I will admit I am ignorant about a lot of this stuff but I am learning.

Thanks!

Sawacs

 

[Berwhale]

Right now, I am running analog out of the Node 2i and into the Denon 4700. Are you saying I should run an optical instead of the analog connection?

To my ears, the CXN-v2 has sounded better than the Denon alone or through the Node 2i. Hard to explain but the sound quality just isn't there.

I will admit I am ignorant about a lot of this stuff but I am learning.

Thanks!

Sawacs

Yes, I would just connect the 2i to the X4700h with an optical (TosLink) cable.

Generally speaking, an audio signal can be degraded by distortion and noise. The SINAD measurement that you will see mentioned in Amir's reviews is a number that represents the sum of distortion and noise. Looking as SINAD for a particular device (e.g. a DAC) is useful when comparing similar devices, but it becomes less useful once this SINAD number is over a threshold that represents the human ear and brains ability to discern any difference. This is discussed and explained here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

SINAD is also useful when considering the whole audio chain (e.g. from the source, like your Node 2i, through to the speakers or headphones). SINAD is cumulative, i.e. once it is introduced into the chain, another device further down the chain cannot remove it. This also means that any device in the chain with significantly more SINAD than the others will tend to dominate the overall SINAD and therefore worrying about a few dB's of SINAD on the other devices is pointless.

Modern standalone DACs can have very high (way past audibility) SINAD compared to other devices and this why many ASR members consider DACs a 'done deal' from 'sound quality' perspective and tend focus on other attributes such as price, functionality, build quality, aesthetics and customer support.

The DAC in your X4700h is already 'good enough' and there is almost certainly no point sticking a more performant stand alone DAC between it and the Node 2i.

Good luck with the learning, there is plenty on ASR to keep you occupied

Amir's reviews and technical explanations on Youtube are a good place to start: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWp1NY1KXGwcOh1RxKp_-FA/videos

 

[Wino]

I have the X6700h in my home theater. While I only infrequently use it for music with a RPi w/ Pi2aes hat as the streamer.... I have put the Gustard into the chain and subjectively preferred the Gustard over the 6700h. Your mileage may vary.

 

[linuxfan]

Why do you need a separate DAC? You can take the optical out the Node 2i straight into the X4700h.

Sure, but the DAC in the X4700 is either an AK4458 (older build dates) or 3x PCM5100A (newer build dates) and these are very modest DAC's, unlikely to be much better (if at all) to the PCM5242 DAC in the Node 2i.
There are many instances on the web of Node 2/i owners reporting better SQ when using a high-end (or maybe even mid-level) external DAC. sawacs, don't take my word for it - Google it yourself, and maybe if possible, audition a DAC and let your ears decide.
I think the Topping D90se and Gustard X26 are certainly good candidates, but you might even be happy with a mid-priced unit such as SMSL DO200 ... read this -
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...aoshida-hi-fi-do200.27344/page-2#post-1042711

 

[JSmith]

X4700h

This will be digitising the analogue inputs anyway, in particular if your using room correction or bass management.


JSmith

 

[linuxfan]

This will be digitising the analogue inputs anyway, in particular if you're using room correction or bass management.

Good point. I see two possibilities to avoid the DSP of the X4700H:

i) physically bypass the X4700H, and cable directly from the new DAC to Emotiva amp. This will obviously be inconvenient to re-plug cables back and forth, unless you go via some form of switch?

or ii) activate the "Pure Direct" mode of the X4700H. There's discussion on this subject here -
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/de...anage-subwoofer-in-direct-sound-mode.3231155/

 

[JSmith]

activate the "Pure Direct" mode of the X4700H

Yes, the analog inputs are not digitized in direct mode which I think Amir's measurements showed too;

Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the newly announced Denon AVR-X4700H 9.2 channel AVR. It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me for testing. It costs US $1,700 on Amazon including Prime shipping. NOTE: post publication of this review, Denon Engineering kindly...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

 

[Jimster480]

As others mentioned; you can't get better performance with this avr really..
If you are looking for a DAC for this situation, the lower end is already overkill.

 

[Sukram]

I have the Bluesound vault, Dustard x16 Dac, Gustard H16 Preamp, and the purifi amplifier.
If I switch between Dac and analog out of the vault, there is no audible difference.
Save your money

 

[sawacs]

The reason I am searching for an external DAC is I could very easily hear the difference between the 4700's DAC and the Cambridge CXN-v2 regarding sound. The difference, to my ears, was night and day with the CXN sounding punchier and just overall better.

The Node 2i, does not come close to the CXN.

When I compare the Node 2i's sound vs the 4700's, it is very hard to tell any difference.

After doing a little more research, I decided to order a Topping D90se from Amazon. Worst case is I return it but I am hopeful I will not have to.

I realize everyone's ears are a little different but to my ears there was enough difference to warrant adding an external DAC to the system.

I will keep everyone posted about the Topping D90se after I get it set up.

Cheers,

Sawacs

 

[NiagaraPete]

Node 2i

Review and Measurements of Bluesound NODE 2i Streamer

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Bluesound Node 2i Streamer. It is on kind loan from a member and costs $499. I am assuming their target market is where SONOS dominates if you are familiar with that brand. From the outside, this is one looking and feeling unit! The unit is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Jimster480]

The reason I am searching for an external DAC is I could very easily hear the difference between the 4700's DAC and the Cambridge CXN-v2 regarding sound. The difference, to my ears, was night and day with the CXN sounding punchier and just overall better.

The Node 2i, does not come close to the CXN.

When I compare the Node 2i's sound vs the 4700's, it is very hard to tell any difference.

After doing a little more research, I decided to order a Topping D90se from Amazon. Worst case is I return it but I am hopeful I will not have to.

I realize everyone's ears are a little different but to my ears there was enough difference to warrant adding an external DAC to the system.

I will keep everyone posted about the Topping D90se after I get it set up.

Cheers,

Sawacs

How come such an expensive dac? You could have ordered the cheapest one especially considering the peak performance of your AVR. $800 is quite a bit to spend on a whim unless you are also going to build a headphone setup with it.

 

[sawacs]

How come such an expensive dac? You could have ordered the cheapest one especially considering the peak performance of your AVR. $800 is quite a bit to spend on a whim unless you are also going to build a headphone setup with it.

I already have a cheaper DAC in the form of the Node 2i which I can easily tell the difference between that and the CXN-v2 that I returned. The Topping D90se is still cheaper than the Cambridge so I figured I would give it a try. Lastly, the reviews on the Topping were really good.

 

[NiagaraPete]

I already have a cheaper DAC in the form of the Node 2i which I can easily tell the difference between that and the CXN-v2 that I returned. The Topping D90se is still cheaper than the Cambridge so I figured I would give it a try. Lastly, the reviews on the Topping were really good.

For me the price of the Node as a streamer is ridiculous. A 100.00 Nano outperforms it. Adding something in between seems pointless when the Denon is transparent.

 

[MajorP]

@sawacs You should have tried connecting the streamer to the Denon via toslink first and setting the Denon to "pure direct" mode first.
This will result in your system using the Denon DAC chip instead of the node.
I bet this will result in the same quality you heared when using the CXN v2 and will also hear when using the Topping since all 3 (Denon, CXN v2 and Topping) are transparent DACs.

My advice: get a toslink cable and save the money for good music.

 

[sawacs]

For me the price of the Node as a streamer is ridiculous. A 100.00 Nano outperforms it. Adding something in between seems pointless when the Denon is transparent.

Here is my ignorance showing.

Are you saying I could get rid of the node and simply run the Topping D90se into the Denon and use the Denon as the streamer? If thats the case, the nose is getting returned.

 

[sawacs]

@sawacs You should have tried connecting the streamer to the Denon via toslink first and setting the Denon to "pure direct" mode first.
This will result in your system using the Denon DAC chip instead of the node.
I bet this will result in the same quality you heared when using the CXN v2 and will also hear when using the Topping since all 3 (Denon, CXN v2 and Topping) are transparent DACs.

My advice: get a toslink cable and save the money for good music.

I will give that a try and thank you!