D&D 8c / Buchardt A700

[kaa]

I have been eying both these actives to upgrade and simplify my current passive setup. So far, I have gathered the below on these:

A700:
https://buchardtaudio.com/collections/active-speakers/products/a700
https://www.lowbeats.de/die-daenische-kultmarke-goes-aktiv-buchardt-audio-a700/

8C:
https://dutchdutch.com/8c/
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/dutch_dutch_8c/
https://www.stereophile.com/content/dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeaker-system
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...akers-for-pop-electronic-and-rock-music-fans/

Listening Space: Living area 12ft x 15ft opens into a kitchen and dining of 24ft x 28ft. Left speaker would be placed around 1.5ft/2ft from left & back wall. The right speaker is 1.5ft/2ft from the back wall and open area to its right. I don't have much room to play around with the placements. The setup is intended for music/tv/movies.

Based on the specs and reviews I think these are equally capable. The lack of a remote (web only) on the 8c will require an external digital volume control. There is not much out there on the A700 but being WISA compliant it is more versatile. The A700 comes with a 45 return policy and I am trying to get in touch with a D&D dealer to get an in home trial. The 8c is about $5k more than the A700. I think the 8c would fare better in my restrictive listening area and a home trial will help with the decision. Are there any other aspects I should consider as these are my first actives apart from the flexibility (repair, upgrade etc.) of a passive setup?

 

[sajgre]

Did you hear any of them yet? They are on my wish list as well!

 

[sajgre]

A700 would ship in October. I'll order them and when they arrive I'll try to get 8c as well for a comparison.

 

[Chromatischism]

What are your output requirements? The A700 I see for someone not wanting or planning on using subwoofers, which I don't agree with but some people have constraints. So it's a complete system in that regard.

But unless I had money to burn, I would stick to much less expensive passive + sub options. My 2 cents.

 

[sajgre]

If I can hijack the thread... I'm looking into a700 or d&d 8c exactly because I can't add subs. Listening distance 2.5m to 3m, room width 5m ceiling 4.5m, behind listening position 5m space that opens to one side.
I think bots systems should be great, what I want to know is if a700 is as refined as d8.

 

[Chromatischism]

I think bots systems should be great, what I want to know is if a700 is as refined as d8.

Not sure, but for fun let's have a look at the measurements:

Buchardt A700:

Dutch & Dutch 8c:

Listening window at a glance looks very similar. D&D has a little bit of a rise to the upper bass and lower midrange. Buchardt is more linear there, while the D&D looks smoother through the treble, but the overall trend is the same. Hard to say if the squiggles are audible or just due to measurement differences.

Horizontal Directivity

Buchardt A700:

Dutch & Dutch 8c:

8c controls directivity to a lower frequency, but is a bit narrower overall at ~90 degrees wide vs ~110 degrees for the A700.

 

[Rizzle]

Some more reviews and/or measurements of the Dutch & Dutch 8c:
Sound on Sound
The Next Web
Audiophilestyle
Soundstage Network measurements (review)

This is what I collected on both speakers, of course I could be wrong:

Profit marging - cost of drivers = 86.71% on the Dutch & Dutch and 89.35% on the Buchardt. That doesn't say anything (e.g., R&D, distribution, amplifier & cabinets), but my gut tells me that more went to the Dutch & Dutch in that regard as well, definitely the amplifier. So my money is on the Dutch & Dutch, for the price it could be a different story. As @VintageFlanker said, I give more value to third-party measurements than manufacturer data. Plus the sheer availability of measurements on the Dutch & Dutch indicates to me that they know and trust their product enough to be measured by independent reviewers.

 

[VintageFlanker]

There is not much out there on the A700 but being WISA compliant it is more versatile

It's not. WISA/Hub on Buchardt A series is a total mess. Avoid. They still sound stellar wired, tho. I've now paired my A500 with Matrix Mini Pro i3 and I only began to enjoy using my speakers since.

Not sure, but for fun let's have a look at the measurements:

Tiers-party measurements VS manufacturer data (with no indication about the Master Tuning used and very low SPL: 55dB Vs 100+ for @hardisj spin)... so not quite apple to apple comparaison.

Also, both A700 and A500 use the same backplate from Platin (with 3 amp channels used for A500 and another one for A700). There is absolutely no way the A700 will deliver this low-end response at 100dBSPL, it will collapse at 90dB or so, according to the DSP behaviour. The 8C will deliver much higher output, thanks to its Pascal modules and 8" drivers.

 

[PKAWA]

I've ordered the A700's and have listened to the 8c's and Kii three's with and without BXT modules in the past so it will be interesting to hear them.
They are expected to be delivered in Oktober.

 

[PKAWA]

It's not. WISA/Hub on Buchardt A series is a total mess. Avoid. They still sound stellar wired, tho. I've now paired my A500 with Matrix Mini Pro i3 and I only began to enjoy using my speakers since.

Tiers-party measurements VS manufacturer data (with no indication about the Master Tuning used and very low SPL: 55dB Vs 100+ for @hardisj spin)... so not quite apple to apple comparaison.

Also, both A700 and A500 use the same backplate from Platin (with 3 amp channels used for A500 and another one for A700). There is absolutely no way the A700 will deliver this low-end response at 100dBSPL, it will collapse at 90dB or so, according to the DSP behaviour. The 8C will deliver much higher output, thanks to its Pascal modules and 8" drivers.

SPL at 17hz is at 93dB, if you play at earbleading levels such as 109db you get 38hz.
Dutch & Dutch 8c's are double the price so I should hope they are at least a little better.

 

[VintageFlanker]

SPL at 17hz is at 93dB, if you play at earbleading levels such as 109db you get 38hz

Source?

 

[PKAWA]

Source?

Mads Buchardt himself

 

[VintageFlanker]

Mads Buchardt himself

Mads Buchardt is no contest a great guy but he told (me) a lot of things...

He should publish this data somewhere instead of showing Klippel captures at 55dB SPL. Without any verification, this 93dB(1M? Anechoic ?) at 17Hz is still some unverified claim from a manufacturer...

 

[PKAWA]

Okay I would like too see data too but you claim that they cannot produce that kind of sound without proof. He designed them, so he should know what he's talking about.
And thus far they delivered what they said.

This site
https://www.lowbeats.de/die-daenische-kultmarke-goes-aktiv-buchardt-audio-a700/
Said they have tested them and found the claims true.
Still no hard data but I'm inclined to believe it over random forum convo.

 

[VintageFlanker]

He designed them, so he should know what he's talking about.

Sure thing is you don't know what you're talking about: Mads Buchardt is not an engineer and didn't design any speaker so far. He has a team for that.

Said they have tested them and found the claims true.
Still no hard data

What LowBeats "found" with no hard data is nothing of interest on ASR.

I'm inclined to believe it over random forum convo.

Well, maybe you should first show a bit more respect to contributors here...

 

[PKAWA]

You might want to look in the mirror for that last part buddy.
I haven't been disrespectful and you're the one claiming I don't know what I'm talking about. Respect is earned and so far you have been making some unfounded claims.

"There is absolutely no way the A700 will deliver this low-end response at 100dBSPL, it will collapse at 90dB or so"

So where is your research to back that up?
At least I was trying to be helpful with a review and answers straight from the source.

 

[AdamG]

You might want to look in the mirror for that last part buddy.
I haven't been disrespectful and you're the one claiming I don't know what I'm talking about. Respect is earned and so far you have been making some unfounded claims.

"There is absolutely no way the A700 will deliver this low-end response at 100dBSPL, it will collapse at 90dB or so"

So where is your research to back that up?
At least I was trying to be helpful with a review and answers straight from the source.

Hi @PKAWA,

OK you are new here, so this gets a pass. This is a Science first, facts first type of Forumn. When someone makes bold claims like you did, you will get challenged to provide proof/evidence to back up your claims. So, in the future be prepared to scientifically defend your generalized value statements here.

Being challenged on your statements can feel rude or disrespectful. But at ASR this is how we work. It’s not personal. We just want to know if you have any actual Data to support your claims. Objectivism is our goal. Facts and data is the language we use. It’s OK to make Subjective observations or opinions but they need to be properly conveyed as such and not represented as Fact.

 

[PKAWA]

Hi @PKAWA,

OK you are new here, so this gets a pass. This is a Science first, facts first type of Forumn. When someone makes bold claims like you did, you will get challenged to provide proof/evidence to back up your claims. So, in the future be prepared to scientifically defend your generalized value statements here.

Being challenged on your statements can feel rude or disrespectful. But at ASR this is how we work. It’s not personal. We just want to know if you have any actual Data to support your claims. Objectivism is our goal. Facts and data is the language we use. It’s OK to make Subjective observations or opinions but they need to be properly conveyed as such and not represented as Fact.

I don't know what you are talking about with your wild claims but I claim nothing. Vintageflanker is the one claiming stuff he can't back up.
And as far as I'm concerned it's clear you haven't even opened the site I linked.
Read the convo again but slower.

 

[VintageFlanker]

you're the one claiming I don't know what I'm talking about

Do you?

Respect is earned and so far you have been making some unfounded bullshit claims.

So where is your research to back that up?

Well...
- I am a Buchardt A series early adopter. So far I'd got two pairs of A500 at home. Kept the White ones, returned the Walnut.
- So far, I am one of the two persons on the internet who published measurements between different Master Tunings. And the only one who've shown captures of both Loudness/LLE behaviour and new MT 2.0 FRs. New MT which, by the way, reduced the low end to deal with the crazy amount of distortion seen with MT 1.2. Just use Google to find out...
- So far, I demonstrated how the Buchardt DSP work with low end extension, and that according to the manufacturer's data. I verified the claimed "25Hz" in-room, as I also verified that past 90dB/1M, the low end will collapse, whatever you want to believe. And that applies to the A700 as well: Why? Because SB Acoustics 6" paper cone drivers cannot handle 17Hz at 90dB+/1M. Not with A500, nor with A700. Using five of them in a bigger enclosure won't do that much better either... The limitation there will be amplification before the drivers excursion: You got three more drivers to feed with the exact same power. How that may be a thing? I sure may be proved wrong, but I need data to do so. I want to see this "17Hz at 93dB". Until then, I don't believe it. Period.

Bye.

 

[PKAWA]

You are making claims about a different product which actually does have more amplifier power with 4x150W instead of the 3x150W for the A500.