It does seem to be an overblown problem...
what does jitter ACTUALLY sound like?
In a previous post we had an encounter with jitter in audio. The talk about jitter is hard to miss these days. There are plenty of products on the mar...
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Cybershaft Platinum Review (External Clock & PS)
- Thread starter amirm
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It does seem to be an overblown problem...
DonR
Major Contributor
EDIT: On second glance at the website, they do make claims about sound that are very unlikely to ever be fulfilled. Like any rational human... I have changed my opinion. Scam it is.
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In that case, this homepage is a scam.
DonR
Major Contributor
This part certain looks scammy:
As our host has demonstrated, it does nothing wrt these claims.
I personally try to never comment on audibility, since people may hear different and demonstrations of these seams all over the place. I don't really know what is audible really, but in term of measured performance, these levels of distortions, if intrinsync to a product, would be considered here headless.It does seem to be an overblown problem...
what does jitter ACTUALLY sound like?
In a previous post we had an encounter with jitter in audio. The talk about jitter is hard to miss these days. There are plenty of products on the mar...www.sereneaudio.com
This statement, although true, doesn't tell the whole tale.
It makes the assumption that any suite or device in the facility is working at the same sample rate! While all gadgets within a suite must be locked together (and, ideally, all the suites within a facility, likewise), unless you are only, ever, working at the one sampling rate, the distribution of “word clock” at, say, 48kHz can be a pain.
A far more common practice is to distribute TV "black level", something that has been done since video editing was invented. Most digital audio kit found in professional suites is able to use this signal as its reference and, internally, derive the required sampling clock; a simple ‘old school’ way of keeping all your suites, and the kit within them, in perfect sync.
zepplock
Active Member
yeah, I was kind of joking. I'd rather see measurements of products I might actually buy, vs chasing each and every snake oil. It gets old fast.
dtaylo1066
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We live in a nation where people now believe drinking your urine will prevent Covid infection, that a vaccine will cause your body to become magnetic, and where the Flat Earth Societ is growing its ranks. Believing that a device will reduce jitter for your DAC may be far less stupid, but still is incorrect.
Maybe this is not the clock's fault but D3's fault.
L7 tested singxer Su2 (which has a 10M clock input) with a -110db @1hz clock (gustard C18)
The close-end of 12k test is obviously better with 10M clock:
red: Su2 internal crystal (as318b, same to the D3)
green: Su2+C18 warmed
blue: Su2+C18 cold
PLEASE pay attention to the X-axis: the su2's jitter is sinking into the noise before 50hz offset (or 10hz with clock) to the 12khz, but D3's close-end jitter is way more than the su2, it takes about 400hz offset to sink the jitters into the noise.
The cybershaft op16 's phase nosie is -116db @1hz , and some other people measured it with a microsemi phase noise analyzer and the spec is proved.
L7 tested singxer Su2 (which has a 10M clock input) with a -110db @1hz clock (gustard C18)
The close-end of 12k test is obviously better with 10M clock:
red: Su2 internal crystal (as318b, same to the D3)
green: Su2+C18 warmed
blue: Su2+C18 cold
PLEASE pay attention to the X-axis: the su2's jitter is sinking into the noise before 50hz offset (or 10hz with clock) to the 12khz, but D3's close-end jitter is way more than the su2, it takes about 400hz offset to sink the jitters into the noise.
The cybershaft op16 's phase nosie is -116db @1hz , and some other people measured it with a microsemi phase noise analyzer and the spec is proved.
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Let's just say it doesn't ever wear patent leather shoes.
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However, there is a good chance sending it out over coax cable will introduce more jitter than is in the clock. It will still be low, but the jitter in the DAC is likely not as low as the clock feeding it.Maybe this is not the clock's fault but D3's fault.
L7 tested singxer Su2 (which has a 10M clock input) with a -110db @1hz clock (gustard C18)
The close-end of 12k test is obviously better with 10M clock:
red: Su2 internal crystal (as318b, same to the D3)
green: Su2+C18 warmed
blue: Su2+C18 cold
The cybershaft op16 's phase nosie is -116db @1hz , and some other people measured it with a microsemi phase noise analyzer and the spec is proved.
Actually, this point comes up a lot: what's the point of extreme measurements if we can't hear in the extreme? There is no audible separation between DACs measuring green and blue, and some may argue even orange. I believe the benefit of ASR is for those who want to pay more for performance (measured as SINAD) even if inaudible - they see all the marketing hyperbole, and ASR simply puts it to the test.Read this article and measurments and if you tell me that these levels of measured distortions induced by Jitter don't matter and are not in audible territory, then we should probably ignore this whole site because nothing that Amir measures on modern equipment matters then. Equipment would get trashed in reviews for much less.
The Jitter Game Page 5
The last processor measured was the Bitwise Musik System Zero (reviewed in September 1992). At full scale the Zero had a smooth spectrum, with very few spikes and an overall jitter level of between 2.0 and 2.8ns. It maintained this performance until -50dBFS (worst case), where the number and...www.stereophile.com
ousi
Active Member
That exactly is the reason why I keep coming back to ASR. I had my fair share in the hi-end field and was wondering why I found some pieces seem to sound worse than a cheaper one (PS Audio for example, vs Topping/SMSL), while naively thought spending more should get better performance, or at least some benefit but same performance. Turned out in a lot of cases, it's simply snake oil - fancy case that does not perform better than one used by a cheaper product, reimplementation of certain ideas that was used in the past (R2R DAC), improvement that is not improvement (external clock, not for synchronizing between equipment), cables that people claimed that sound different, etc.
It's like I pay a certain amount for a performance car that claimed to do a top speed of 200mph, or a specific 0-60 time. While I won't likely be able to use that ever especially top speed, I still would like to know if I actually paid for the performance or not.
ASR is a great place to at least put those to test, while being as objective and consistent as possible, without all those marketing buzz and subjective reviewers with flourish wording reviews.
I am all for this; even if he has to take Valium to achieve less eq/comp. I never liked processed meats either.
If the rear facia clock adjustment('adjuster') is accessible, then it may have ample variability to adjust its own clock to other clocks in the chain. possibly...
Exactly, you know that they actually charged you for intelligent engineering, so you are willing to pay the premium for that effort even if you understand it's inaudible. I am always willing to pay more for intelligent UI/UX because it affects my joy of the product every time I use it.
this so called TMMT result is achieved by a NOS R2R dac, not by directly sending AES signal to apx555
read this if you want to know some details:
L7Audiolab The Magic Mirror Test - L7Audiolab
访谈、随笔、观点 很久之前，555还没到手的时候我就做过关于抖动的测量。当时是因为对U16不满所以测了一波。其中测量方法就有用到我今天命名为“The Magic Mirror Test"的基本部分。这篇文章是为了让读者能够更好的理解相关测量，并在未来有相关测量结果的时候可以直接进行比较。
www.l7audiolab.com
)
It's all Greek to me.(try translate it with deepL if you cant read Chinese
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I don't read Chinese,.......sothis so called TMMT result is achieved by a NOS R2R dac, not by directly sending AES signal to apx555
read this if you want to know some details:
(try translate it with deepL if you cant read ChineseL7Audiolab The Magic Mirror Test - L7Audiolab
访谈、随笔、观点 很久之前，555还没到手的时候我就做过关于抖动的测量。当时是因为对U16不满所以测了一波。其中测量方法就有用到我今天命名为“The Magic Mirror Test"的基本部分。这篇文章是为了让读者能够更好的理解相关测量，并在未来有相关测量结果的时候可以直接进行比较。
OP
- Thread Starter
- #139
There is nothing to read really. He is just observing that jitter creates symmetrical sidebands and hence can be found using FFT as I show in my tests. This eliminates the need for extremely high performance clock measurement instruments to measure the clock variations directly. And has the benefit that we just measure the analog output of the DAC instead of sampling its clock.
charleski
Major Contributor
Back in 2009 Stereophile published a comparison of a $6000 McIntosh media server and a $25 PS1.
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