Curious about this forum regarding my cable journey

[dwcda]

I'm new here, just registered today although I've read it for awhile. I have a new system and was considering the cables that I owned so where better to get advice than a forum that supports the idea that cables make a difference.

So I commented on the issues with ABX testing...

Audiogon Discussion Forum

I’ve followed many of the cable discussions over the years with interest. I’ve never tested cables & compared the sound other than when I bought an ...

forum.audiogon.com

And then my experience with AQ Dragon power cords...

Audiogon Discussion Forum

I was talking to my dealer about how good the system sounds that he sold me. I mentioned that I had tried some new speaker/interconnect cables from a lo...

forum.audiogon.com

It was quite a journey and I realize that there is no room for me in that cult. But while I appreciate the scientific approach here I have heard some variations with cables that leads me to believe that they can sound differently, it's just difficult to switch back and forth quickly enough to retain one sound to compare with another. Plus, the differences are very slight while the cost can be huge. So I'm not sure that these beliefs fit in here as well.

For those who say "is there a question there?", not really, just hoping to get some discussion and learn from a different pov.

 

[DJNX]

This particular sensory store is capable of storing large amounts of auditory information that is only retained for a short period of time (3–4 seconds).

With ABX, the faster you switch from A/B to X, the more reliable the test is. The process of manually changing cables makes it very unreliable, considering what we know about how good we are at remembering details to compare sounds.

What I would say to you is that judging from the photos you shared, you already put a lot of effort into your system, and in parts that do make huge difference, like acoustics. You yourself describe the influence of cables as "little discernible sound difference".
Why not forget about that and enjoy the music?

 

[kemmler3D]

I'm not an EE so someone might come along and correct me on this: Cables can make a difference only when the input / output impedances interact with the inductance / capacitance of a cable improperly. "Improperly" is my weasel word here because I don't fully understand how it works.

Long story short with most modern gear, especially solid state gear, the only difference cables are expected to cause is via resistance. The differences in resistance between one cable and another at lengths of less than (say) 50-100 feet are truly negligible. You get differences of something like -0.1dB @ 20khz and that's it. Not audible by any means.

People who argue otherwise about the speed of propagation and other exotic stuff being audible are either arguing in bad faith or simply don't know what they're talking about at all.

When it comes to power cables, in rare cases you might find a decrease in noise or PSU hum in the output signal - if your gear is designed badly and the new cable somehow picks up a lot less interference than the old one. But if that's the case, the better point of view is that the gear is faulty, not the cable. Any half-decent DAC for $200 rejects PSU noise perfectly well... in what universe does it make sense to spend that (or multiples of it) to get a badly designed DAC working right?

Switching cables around manually and doing listening tests that way is basically impossible, don't bother. I used to A/B headphones at work to tune them... hard enough even if you have them both awkwardly placed on your head at the same time. You can't switch cables fast enough to hear something even if it's there, which it almost definitely isn't.

Lastly, the people saying "I hear the difference" are not lying, they probably did hear something. The problem is that the brain can produce sound quality differences much more easily (and MUCH more reliably) than a power cable can. If you expect to hear something, you will hear something. This is why believers in cables always hear differences, but nobody ever does in ABX tests.

 

[Purité Audio]

Just buy fit for purpose cables, pro audio designs fit the bill and are not expensive.
Keith

 

[dwcda]

Why not forget about that and enjoy the music?

I've been doing that the entire time. But yes, I will soon let this go and just enjoy.

 

[DVDdoug]

it's just difficult to switch back and forth quickly enough to retain one sound to compare with another.

In that case, does it matter? No... You could be listening to the expensive cables today and if you switched to cheap cables tomorrow you'd never hear the difference.

Some "audiophiles" say you have to "live with the cables" or listen for a longer time to hear the difference. But you are correct about auditory memory and quick switching is usually best. The exception would be where there is a certain resonance in a speaker or headphone or a compression artifact in an MP3 that only shows-up with certain signals and it may be more apparent in a particular part of a particular recording. But then you can quickly re-play that part while switching.

You have to be careful with CAN make a difference vs. DO make a difference. There are unusual or extreme situations where cables CAN make a difference... Especially defective cables, or using the wrong wire/cable for the application. But properly shielded line-level cables and speaker cables rarely make any difference in home setups (short cable runs).

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I'm new here, just registered today although I've read it for awhile. I have a new system and was considering the cables that I owned so where better to get advice than a forum that supports the idea that cables make a difference.

So I commented on the issues with ABX testing...

Audiogon Discussion Forum

I’ve followed many of the cable discussions over the years with interest. I’ve never tested cables & compared the sound other than when I bought an ...

forum.audiogon.com

And then my experience with AQ Dragon power cords...

Audiogon Discussion Forum

I was talking to my dealer about how good the system sounds that he sold me. I mentioned that I had tried some new speaker/interconnect cables from a lo...

forum.audiogon.com

It was quite a journey and I realize that there is no room for me in that cult. But while I appreciate the scientific approach here I have heard some variations with cables that leads me to believe that they can sound differently, it's just difficult to switch back and forth quickly enough to retain one sound to compare with another. Plus, the differences are very slight while the cost can be huge. So I'm not sure that these beliefs fit in here as well.

For those who say "is there a question there?", not really, just hoping to get some discussion and learn from a different pov.

Firstly there is distinction between measurably different and audibly different.

You need to conceive of the cables being part of a mesh containing the amplifier output stage and its impedance behaviour, the cables (and their characteristics) and the loudspeaker inputs and behaviours. It's actually quite easy to mix a certain speaker with a certain amplifier and get reliable and measurable difference between inductive and capacitive cables.

In some extreme cases, the differences above can be sufficiently extreme to be audible as well as measurable.

But for commonly available amplifiers with low impedance outputs (which excludes quite a lot of tube amplifiers) and commonly available loudspeakers, something in the well made 12 to 10 AWG range should meet most needs.

 

[solderdude]

I'll post this here again as cable discussions have been done at nauseam already:

An anecdotal (and true) story about a loudspeaker cable swap I experienced in my previous job as service engineer for a (former) high-end audio store. (not about a power cable swap)
As a service engineer in a small company I also had to install equipment for customers in their homes.
One fine day a customer had bought an expensive cable upgrade for his way better than average music system. The customer was in the music business is all I will say and he shall remain unnamed.
The following is what the CUSTOMER experienced. It is my free interpretation of how he was thinking based on his reactions and remarks.
Even though I wanted to see what the technician was doing he asked me to sit in my carefully positioned listening chair and not move around so I could hear for myself what the changes are in sound quality. This could be quite easy as I know this system and the music inside out and any change will be obvious. If I can NOT tell the difference the salesman had stated I could return the cable and there would be no financial loss.

First I listened to the old cable for a while, it sounded ‘as usual’. After the technician had changed the cables I listened again and the changes were not even subtle but the sound improved clearly. After enjoying the music the technician wanted to put back the old cable to verify the change that occured.
Old cable was installed again… old sound back too so the cables appear to be real upgrade.
After several seconds I already pleated to immediately put the new cables back in there.. How could I have been satisfied with this sound all this time… I should have upgraded sooner !

The technician put in the new cables again .. Ah there is the excellent sound again and will likely have to revisit all my music again.

What to do with the old cables he asked ?… garbage can of course.
The following is what ACTUALLY happened that day:
I told the customer I wanted to show the improvements the cables made to him and asked him to sit in his chair and put on some music he knew well.
The amplifier did have an A-B speaker output which I could use to switch between cables but as the expensive cable could be returned when the customer did NOT hear any improvements it would not be wise to connect both cables and switch between A and B for obvious reasons.
I told the customer I was going to change the cable while he remained in his chair.
First listen was with the old cable… nothing unexpected came from that.
Next I routed the new cable and moved the amplifier a bit as well as sitting behind the heavy speakers pretending to connect the cable but in fact ONLY routed the cable and left the old one connected.
I didn’t even touch the connectors.
The customer put on some music and the ‘change’ was quite noticeable to him and he listened to it for a while.
He was very pleased with the results thinking (to him knowing) he was actually listening to his new cable.
I proposed to check his findings by connecting the old cable and have a listen again to make sure he heard it correctly. This time, however, I connected the new cable while the CUSTOMER was thinking he was going to listen to his old, and clearly inferior, cable.
Indeed to the customer the ‘old familiar and inferior sound’ was back and already within seconds he asked me to switch back. The change was dramatic and wanted the new cable back on there.
In reality he was now listening to the new cable for the first time.
The customer wanted his new cable back in there. So I pretended to swap cables again while doing no such thing in reality.
I told him the new cable was connected again and took away the old cable.
He listened again and immediately noticed the improvements. He was not ever going to use those old cables again and was putting on different music to listen some more !
He paid for the cable and thanked me for the demonstration…
Everybody was happy that day.
The customer for the obvious sonic improvement, the demonstration he got as well as the free delivery and installation.
I am, for the generous tip he handed me for services provided, and above all the pleasure of experimenting on unsuspecting people with excellent hearing in the comfort of their own home and familiar with the system. Of course he still doesn’t know and will gladly tell everyone about the noteworthy improvements he clearly heard when swapping cables.
My boss is happy for making the sale so he can smoke another Cuban cigar.
I have to add that returning cables was standard policy when buying a cable and there was a big sign in the shop stating cables could be returned when no improvements were heard.
In the 7 years I worked there not a single customer EVER returned a cable. And there were some pretty expensive ones amongst them. So either everyone hears it or they don’t but do not want to be laughed at behind their back or they just figure a 'better' cable can’t hurt and as they already paid for it keep using it 'knowing' it is good.
The importer and manufacturer of the cable are also thankful because of the big profit margin.

 

[dwcda]

In the 7 years I worked there not a single customer EVER returned a cable. And there were some pretty expensive ones amongst them. So either everyone hears it or they don’t but do not want to be laughed at behind their back or figure a better cable can’t hurt.

I was prepared to be happy to hear some improvement from the cables that I tested. But confirmation bias was somewhere else that day.

And I get the motivation that some people have for buying these cables... they've spent a lot of money already and are told that they can get that last X% if they just get some expensive cables. The dealer who sold me my gear said there was no way I should consider using my Mogami cables on this new equipment. When I returned the cables the he sent to try he said that no one had ever returned cables in his 40 years of experience, unless it was to get more expensive cables.

 

[mhardy6647]

I'll post this here again as cable discussions have been done at nauseam already:
...
In the 7 years I worked there not a single customer EVER returned a cable. And there were some pretty expensive ones amongst them. So either everyone hears it or they don’t but do not want to be laughed at behind their back or figure a better cable can’t hurt....

And yet, the used cable market bursts at the seams -- and resale prices are a fraction of the original selling prices.
(maybe even worse than the used boutique loudspeaker market)

 

[Multicore]

But while I appreciate the scientific approach here I have heard some variations with cables that leads me to believe that they can sound differently, it's just difficult to switch back and forth quickly enough to retain one sound to compare with another.

Setting up your own tests that are valid is difficult. I never managed it myself.

I remember when in about 1984 when marketing expensive speaker cable reached Scotland (not expensive by the standards of today's expensive but it was more than we were used to spending on it) I got some that I was proud of and later a friend got some too for about half the price and less fancy looking. We set up a comparison and we agreed that his sounded better with more bass. That was good. It demonstrated at least that price is not a guide. Even if it demonstrated nothing scientifically it was a good lesson.

Plus, the differences are very slight while the cost can be huge. So I'm not sure that these beliefs fit in here as well.

The suggestion of defects in your system can affect perception. That's what a lot of hifi marketing depends on. I am The Pragmatic Antiaudiophile (you can search this forum to find my attempts to define what that might mean) and among the psychological tricks I use is to focus on the things I can hear, not on suggestions from others. If I can't here defects then I'm not going to try to hear them and especially not based on suggestions of defects I might hear if I were better able to hear them or if I do experiments that demonstrate them. Or, on other words, it's better to be a cloth-eared music lover than a golden-eared audiophile.

 

[kemmler3D]

When I returned the cables the he sent to try he said that no one had ever returned cables in his 40 years of experience, unless it was to get more expensive cables.

This actually gives away the game if you think about it.

Nobody ever returned a cable because it sounded worse or no different?

In every other piece of audio equipment, some sound better, some are worse, some are basically the same. And sometimes you can hear the difference and return the worse one. Sometimes the new one will be the worse one, especially if you are doing things by ear and not reading measurements beforehand.

So in 40 long years, he never managed to sell someone a new cable that happened to be worse than their old one? NEVER? (Making the assumption he was being 100% honest here.)

The only way this is realistically possible is if there actually are no differences in cables at all.

 

[Jim Taylor]

But while I appreciate the scientific approach here I have heard some variations with cables that leads me to believe that they can sound differently,

There is not any component in the audio chain that cannot be made worse, made off-standard, made to be deceptive and made in some cases incompetently.

Anything good can be ruined. Not everything that has been ruined can be made good.

Jim

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

I'm new here, just registered today although I've read it for awhile. I have a new system and was considering the cables that I owned so where better to get advice than a forum that supports the idea that cables make a difference.

So I commented on the issues with ABX testing...

Audiogon Discussion Forum

I’ve followed many of the cable discussions over the years with interest. I’ve never tested cables & compared the sound other than when I bought an ...

forum.audiogon.com

And then my experience with AQ Dragon power cords...

Audiogon Discussion Forum

I was talking to my dealer about how good the system sounds that he sold me. I mentioned that I had tried some new speaker/interconnect cables from a lo...

forum.audiogon.com

It was quite a journey and I realize that there is no room for me in that cult. But while I appreciate the scientific approach here I have heard some variations with cables that leads me to believe that they can sound differently, it's just difficult to switch back and forth quickly enough to retain one sound to compare with another. Plus, the differences are very slight while the cost can be huge. So I'm not sure that these beliefs fit in here as well.

For those who say "is there a question there?", not really, just hoping to get some discussion and learn from a different pov.

You have essentially hit the problem. You can’t compare an aural memory to real time sound.

The human brain can not process everything we hear so we steer our focus. Steered focus quite literally affects what we hear. Then that goes through substantial data reduction and additional steered focus. So it creates an aural memory that can’t function as an objective reference.

So differences will often be perceived where none exist. It’s biology. No getting around it

 

[dwcda]

You have essentially hit the problem. You can’t compare an aural memory to real time sound.

That has been my experience though I couldn't put it into words the way you just did.

 

[USER]

One thing to think about: are those fancy power cables safety certified? Heaven forbid they lead to a fire. You don't want to be in a position where your insurance company finds out that you were using some third party power cable instead of something that follows safety regulation. They won't care about those "lifted veils." Sometimes it is smart to leave well-enough alone.

 

[Chrispy]

Welcome aboard. There was the Van Alstine ABX Comparator device, but doing your own level matched blind comparisons can be very difficult (particularly a power cord, which the ABX Comparator also wouldn't accommodate IIRC). One of the things my grandfather, an EE with pro audio background, told me early on was not to believe the cable nonsense that had started to emerge in audiophilia, so I didn't. I've used plenty of cables over the years of various sorts, reasonably priced though, and never saw reason to assign any audio qualities to cable if the cable worked and is suited to purpose. The idea power cords can make a difference is one of the funnier ones, tho.

 

[im_gumby]

I'm new here, just registered today although I've read it for awhile. I have a new system and was considering the cables that I owned so where better to get advice than a forum that supports the idea that cables make a difference.

So I commented on the issues with ABX testing...

Audiogon Discussion Forum

I’ve followed many of the cable discussions over the years with interest. I’ve never tested cables & compared the sound other than when I bought an ...

forum.audiogon.com

And then my experience with AQ Dragon power cords...

Audiogon Discussion Forum

I was talking to my dealer about how good the system sounds that he sold me. I mentioned that I had tried some new speaker/interconnect cables from a lo...

forum.audiogon.com

It was quite a journey and I realize that there is no room for me in that cult. But while I appreciate the scientific approach here I have heard some variations with cables that leads me to believe that they can sound differently, it's just difficult to switch back and forth quickly enough to retain one sound to compare with another. Plus, the differences are very slight while the cost can be huge. So I'm not sure that these beliefs fit in here as well.

For those who say "is there a question there?", not really, just hoping to get some discussion and learn from a different pov.

There have been some YouTube videos where YT Audiophiles did some ABX tests.
The results weren't better than just guessing.

Honestly... make your own.
Its cheaper and you may have some fun.

 

[AuricGoldfinger]

I'm new here, just registered today although I've read it for awhile. I have a new system and was considering the cables that I owned so where better to get advice than a forum that supports the idea that cables make a difference...

If you don’t want to do a live test, or it’s too complicated, then just record the audio output from the device with an audio interface. You can then do an AB test at your leisure, even with headphones.

I’ve done this for years and even record the output from amplifiers through a voltage divider.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

There have been some YouTube videos where YT Audiophiles did some ABX tests.
The results weren't better than just guessing.

Honestly... make your own.
Its cheaper and you may have some fun.

They did actual ABX?