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Curious about subwoofer/low frequency "tightness"/musicality. What does it even mean? What do YOU look for?

kawauso said:
The 1V is a better choice than the 1S.

Ported subs can produce some port noise at high SPL,
but it’s far less noticeable than mechanical distortion.

The RSL 10e looks very good for the price —
more than sufficient for 80 dB use.

If you roll off around 20 Hz,
it should also handle slightly higher SPL levels without issue.
Click to expand...
thank you!
wdym by roll off at 20hz? A high pass filter for it around 20 hz?
 
Wayne Highwood said:
You answered this yourself, earlier in your post: size. I have both. Why? It's case specific. 9x11 closed office has sealed subs. Why? They don't hog up a bunch of space, and their shallower roll-off plays well with the higher cabin gain that small enclosed rooms tend to have, so in-room bass extends nice and deep (sans eq). The huge, open floorplan room that eats bass for breakfast has ported subs. Why? They're simply much more efficient at producing bass. In this room/space, going sealed would demand a highly costly, herculean brute force approach to do the same job.
Click to expand...
haha just talking about random things here made me learn a lot more! The iron law thing cleared me up on a lot of things and everything makes more sense now.

Thank you for the answer! May I ask what subs you use? and do you use multiple of them?
 
Sokel said:
My preference if I had to choose would be case specific as @Wayne Highwood described above.
And that preference would dictate to me if I went with sealed ones they would have to be at least twice as good, quality-wised, than any ported candidate.
Click to expand...
oh my, so a strong preference for ported ones!

thank you
 
Jiraya369 said:
thank you!
wdym by roll off at 20hz? A high pass filter for it around 20 hz?
Click to expand...
You can either boost the low end with EQ to extend the bass range (sacrificing some headroom),
or use a high-pass filter to protect the woofer and prioritize headroom instead.

Looking at Audioholics’ measurements of the Speedwoofer 10E, it already seems to have a built-in high-pass filter.
However, depending on your room, you might still get a rise around 20 Hz from room gain.

I recommend using EQ to shape the bass so it sounds natural and pleasant rather than boomy or exaggerated.
There are also convenient auto-EQ tools available, so if you feel it’s necessary, it’s worth exploring those options.
 
kawauso said:
You can either boost the low end with EQ to extend the bass range (sacrificing some headroom),
or use a high-pass filter to protect the woofer and prioritize headroom instead.

Looking at Audioholics’ measurements of the Speedwoofer 10E, it already seems to have a built-in high-pass filter.
However, depending on your room, you might still get a rise around 20 Hz from room gain.

I recommend using EQ to shape the bass so it sounds natural and pleasant rather than boomy or exaggerated.
There are also convenient auto-EQ tools available, so if you feel it’s necessary, it’s worth exploring those options.
Click to expand...
thank you for the answer!

I'm thinking of first getting some speakers, then a minidsp mic and then the subs.

Would minidsp UMIK-1 be ok for sub calibration?
 
kawauso said:
The UMIK-1 will work perfectly.
If you’d like to try EQ, I recommend using Equalizer APO on a Windows PC.
Click to expand...
thanks for the answer, i already use EQAPO, well a GUI for it, Peace. I love it!
 
Jiraya369 said:
lmfao was the other guy trolling then, he got me good
Click to expand...
I am visualising a custom built room, with one of these behind the Acoustically transparent front wall, 2 on each of the side walls and 1 in the rear wall....

128db @ 20Hz +3db for 2 of them, +further 3db for 4, then another +1db for the last 2 (3db is doubling...) - that would reach 135db... but still unlikely to do so at 1/10th continuous power!

So yeah!
 
Jiraya369 said:
May I ask what subs you use? and do you use multiple of them?
Click to expand...
Sorry if you need shopping advice, the only sub I own that's currently in production is the Hsu VTF2MK5. (Great sub for the money.) The rest are older kits or long out of production. The only rig graced with multi subs is the office. That small room is a bit of a modal mess, dual el cheapo Dayton kits to the rescue.
 
3ll3d00d said:
the theoretical worst case signal (basically a full scale sine wave on every channel) in a 7.1 setup is 20*log(10^(115/20)+(7*(10^(105/20))) = ~125.14dB (the 7 main channels give you ~122 and add that to 115 ends up at ~125)

there's zero content in the real world that has such a signal though so sizing a system on that basis will still have a few (~2-3) dB headroom with real world content (then a few more dB comes for free from room gain though that some of that gets eaten up by a house curve).
Click to expand...
Yeah, I made a mistake adding 17 to 115 instead of adding 15.5 to 105, then summing that with 115. :)
 
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Jiraya369 said:
oh my, so a strong preference for ported ones!

thank you
Click to expand...
I must admit I'm totally biased as I like bigger rooms and gear, sealed has to be of impeccable quality to follow.
Not that smaller ported gear are not nice, to the contrary, look at the Ascilab for example (PR'd are also considered ported)

It's all about skill, at either design.
 
I've had three different sets of subwoofers in my primary system and each has sounded different for music. They were all positioned in nearly the same locations, with small adjustments made for each in order to achieve the smoothest frequency response. I'll start with the disclaimer that all subjective impressions were done sighted and I did not possess the benefit of being able to switch instantly back and forth between them. I am not sure how one is supposed to accomplish this when dealing with massive boxes that are highly sensitive to room placement and calibration. :)

The space approaches 6000 cu ft and sits on a carpeted slab. All measurements were taken at the MLP, roughly 11-12ft distant from each sub.

The first pair of subs in this room were Hsu VT3 MK5s, run with 1 port plugged in extension mode:

1762083138458.png


I used these for many years. For music, I thought they sounded great. At higher volumes they could sometimes sound a bit strained and would introduce port noise with content that reached below ~25Hz.

Then I moved to dual Monolith 15" V2s, run with 1 port plugged in extension mode:

1762083296124.png


These clearly extended further, and essentially eliminated the occasional port noise issue. They sounded "cleaner" overall and could be run much louder without complaint. They also seemed to put more tactile energy into the room. As a result I felt a clear preference for these for music, though it was rather a modest one. Most of the benefits of this upgrade manifested in home theater use.

I then replaced the Monoliths with PSA TV2112Ms:

1762083706608.png


Below 20Hz these really benefitted from room gain. I didn't bother to EQ this region down, because for music it's rarely intrusive and for home theater that's simply "free" headroom.

As you can see, all three sets of subs presented a reasonably flat frequency response post-calibration. They were all in the same room, in nearly the same positions, and calibrated using the same process. And yet a welcome surprise came in that for me, the improvement for music performance made by the TV2112s was quite strong. Where the Hsus and Monoliths largely sounded great, it was clear even at more moderate volumes that they were subwoofers. With the PSAs, the setup sounds like a fully integrated, true full-range system. There is no perceptible "boom" or "bloat" or "hey there I'm a subwoofer" quality to music anymore. Every bass note appears to be clearly delineated, and this quality holds even with more complex material (multitone). Even at low volumes there is a more nuanced, delicate quality provided by these subs that I had not heard before in any other setup. For me, this was clearly demonstrated by the fact that with virtually other subwoofer system I've used, I would be tempted to create separate presets for music and home theater, with the former configured to run with the subs less hot. I feel no need to do that now, even having since added an additional two TV2112Ms (for a total of four). And yes, I know that this reads like most of the silly audiophile magazine subwoofer reviews you've come across, but these are simply my honest impressions.

So why might this be so? My working theory is that it's a combination of higher motor force and damping factor provided by the PSA's B&C pro audio style drivers that are also more excursion limited than your typical subwoofers with a rolled surround. They might be providing a similar effect to something like a servo-driven Rythmik used in its high-damping setting. I regret that I no longer possess the full suite of REW measurements for the Hsu and Monolith subs. It would be interesting to see what differences manifested in the data beyond frequency response.
 
See, now that quad PSA setup is glorious "too much is just enough" methodology in practice. Inherently low distortion, supremely capable subs just loafing along... I think you're on to something with the combo of wild capability and slightly overdamped driver/cab alignment too. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that such lower Q bass alignments are more "room friendly" in that the room is going to do what it's going to do, but such an approach provides less raw material for the room to inflict it's damage with. Is that crazy talk?
 
Jiraya369 said:
hmmm im sorry but im confused, what do you mean? can you explain? I thought crossover meant the point at which the sub starts playing instead of the speaker, what does that mean for delay or location?
Click to expand...
Some 2 ch gear (preamps/integrated amps/receivers particularly), may have a sub pre-out (or none at all) but no adjustable crossover between sub and speakers, often just a fixed low pass filter for the sub and no adjustment for the speakers. Crossover is where the low pass filter slope (for the sub) and high pass filter slope (for the speakers) "cross over"....the sub and speakers both play above and below crossover, how much would depend on the nature of the lpf and hpf slopes. Many sub amps use a low pass filter only and label it "crossover", some subs may have facility to provide a crossover for the speakers; delay is often only an adjustment of 0 or 180 degree phase adjustment, some are variable. Generally AVRs and multich pre-pros offer a fair amount of flexibility for crossover and delay (with some more advanced units offering different level/delay adjustments for more than one sub). Location of the sub(s) relates to how the sub interfaces with your particular room's inherent modes, which is something you generally maximize before any adjustments in the electronics.
 
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Chrispy said:
Some 2 ch gear (preamps/integrated amps/receivers particularly), may have a sub pre-out (or none at all) but no adjustable crossover between sub and speakers, often just a fixed low pass filter for the sub and no adjustment for the speakers. Crossover is where the low pass filter slope (for the sub) and high pass filter slope (for the speakers) "cross over"....the sub and speakers both play above and below crossover, how much would depend on the nature of the lpf and hpf slopes. Many sub amps use a low pass filter only and label it "crossover", some subs may have facility to provide a crossover for the speakers; delay is often only an adjustment of 0 or 180 degree phase adjustment, some are variable. Generally AVRs and multich pre-pros offer a fair amount of flexibility for crossover and delay (with some more advanced units offering different level/delay adjustments for more than one sub). Location of the sub(s) relates to how the sub interfaces with your particular room's inherent modes, which is something you generally maximize before any adjustments in the electronics.
Click to expand...
thank you so much for the detailed answer

This got me wondering, what would you suggest as a desktop receiver if I want to integrate a sub or two? I was thinking of a Topping DX5 II as a DAC+headphone amp as it's my endgame headphone amp paired with Fosi ZA3 or V3 Monos as amps for speakers. But it seems the topping one isn't really made for sub out whereas the Fosi stuff isn't the most granular for sub optimisation
 
Jiraya369 said:
thank you so much for the detailed answer

This got me wondering, what would you suggest as a desktop receiver if I want to integrate a sub or two? I was thinking of a Topping DX5 II as a DAC+headphone amp as it's my endgame headphone amp paired with Fosi ZA3 or V3 Monos as amps for speakers. But it seems the topping one isn't really made for sub out whereas the Fosi stuff isn't the most granular for sub optimisation
Click to expand...
Off the top of my head think the Wiim Pro Amp has decent setup for a sub. Depends how you define receiver to an extent, too, as use of a radio tuner isn't that relevant any more; if it can handle with onboard capability internet/digital signals maybe can still be considered a receiver. I don't use headphones, so don't pay much attention to such gear.
 
Chrispy said:
Off the top of my head think the Wiim Pro Amp has decent setup for a sub. Depends how you define receiver to an extent, too, as use of a radio tuner isn't that relevant any more; if it can handle with onboard capability internet/digital signals maybe can still be considered a receiver. I don't use headphones, so don't pay much attention to such gear.
Click to expand...
i was reading stuff and i was looking at the Wiim Amp Ultra but saw that these can't really be connected to pcs without some extra hardware or something?
 
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