Curious about subwoofer/low frequency "tightness"/musicality. What does it even mean? What do YOU look for?

[bmc0]

And we are 20db more sensitive to 300hz than 50hz.

You forgot to consider frequency masking, which is very broad at low frequencies. I haven't seen masking audiograms in the subwoofer range, but here's one for a 150Hz masker:

(from this article)
The curves show the change in hearing threshold vs frequency. Looking at the 70dBSPL curve, the masking at the 2nd harmonic (300Hz) is about 47dB and the 5th harmonic (750Hz) is about 50dB. According to ISO 226:2003, the hearing thresholds are about 9dBSPL and 2dBSPL respectively. Adding the masking values, we have about 56dBSPL and 52dBSPL, or 20% and 13% relative to the fundamental.

 

[Chrispy]

I don't find the terms tightness and musicality to be particularly useful, they are used for a lot of audio gear, some absolutely ridiculous aside from subs, and hard to know just what people mean. I look for the best performance I can keeping my spl and extension goals in mind whether its a sub I've bought or one I've built. Specs/measurements are one thing, Integration and room complicate that. I tend to prefer multiple subs over a single sub in my rooms at least. Group delay is not a major concern with good subs. Sounds like you're generally on the right track with your approach in any case.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

mUsiCaLiTy is a special quality only perceptible by those who are old and hard of hearing. Unfortunately because it is impervious to measurement and science, we will never know how or why it is inaudible to the rest of us. Life is full of mysteries. And that's why so is mankind.

 

[Philbo King]

To me, 'tight' bass means short scattato bass notes across the bass spectrum do not keep ringing after the note ends.

This can be due to underdamped room or cabinet resonances, but whatever the cause, it can bury detail in the mid and high ranges by burying them in bass mud.

Musicality, like practicality, is a subjective term, and is utterly without value in this context.

My 2 cents.

 

[Chrispy]

To me, 'tight' bass means short scattato bass notes across the bass spectrum do not keep ringing after the note ends.

This can be due to underdamped room or cabinet resonances, but whatever the cause, it can bury detail in the mid and high ranges by burying them in bass mud.

Musicality, like practicality, is a subjective term, and is utterly without value in this context.

My 2 cents.

Curious, what gear/setup do you have that avoids this "ringing" from typical recordings?

 

[dualazmak]

-Meticulous attention to the crossover between subs and main speakers. This is critical regardless of the subs in question.

Yes, I fully agree with you, as I have done, I do, the same!
- Measurement of transient characteristics of Yamaha 30 cm woofer JA-3058 in sealed cabinet and Yamaha active sub-woofer YST-SW1000: #495, #497, #503, #507

Edit:
No matter whatever steep-slope (or mild-slope) crossover filters (LPF for subwoofer, HPF for woofer) would be used, we always have the Fq-zone where sub-woofer and woofer do sing together in almost same gain. The careful optimization is needed/indispensable, therefore, on selection of XO-Fq, XO-filter-type (BW, LR, Bessel, etc.), both-side slopes, phase matching (smooth phase continuation, invert or not), time alignment (group delay), gain matching, etc., etc.
I believe the objective and visual observation of tone-burst sine waves of suitable Fq "in the XO Fq zone" and the 3D color representation thereof, both microphone-measured at listening position, would be most suitable and reliable for such XO optimization between sub-woofer and woofer, as I have done in #495, #503, #507.

And, I believe we need maintaining/utilizing our own (your own) consistent "Reference/Sampler Excellent-Recording-Quality Music playlist" all the way through our audio exploration journey, not only for tuning bass sound but also for tone balance and sound quality (in various aspects) all over 16 Hz to 25 kHz.
I my case, you can find mine on my dedicated thread in this regard;
An Attempt Sharing Reference Quality Music Playlist: at least a portion and/or whole track being analyzed by 3D color spectrum of Adobe Audition

You can find the latest Fq-SPL response at listening position of my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active setup (5-way, 10-channel) in here #1,009 on my project thread.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Going full subjective here:

One interesting experience that can be ran by anybody is to turn the mains off and just listen to the sub or subs... and ponder over that... Subs just .. rumbles, however well they measure, they .. just ... rumble ... mumble ... or shake things when they are capable of suitably high SPL.
Those notions of tightness and musicality of subwoofer and ... are mainly linked IMHO to integration with the mains a well as smoothness of frequency response in the bass range, including the portion of bass covered where the range where the subs response and mains response overlap... Again a matter of smoothness of FR at the end.

Intellectually, I favor low THD and have had some experiences with extreme subwoofer designs with low THD.... My current complement of subwoofers (2), however do not qualify for low THD: (Dayton Audio SUB-1500) ... Yet, I could qualify the bass in my system as "musical and tight".. yes, at all frequencies and the system in my room extend to 18 Hz thanks to some large and broad resonance (about + 14 dB) at 37 Hz , no matter where you place the subs or speakers it will show , and another resonance around 25 Hz , resulting after MSO in this graph:

I will address some of the issues, next year by adding a much better subwoofer from on of these brands ( In alphabetical order): Hsu, Monoprice, or SVS. Yes, in that small room ( 5.2 x 3.4 x 2.8 meters) I will use 3 subwoofers. In the meantime I will work to get a better FR addressing the drop between 50 Hz and 70 hz ...

My conclusion: Proper Integration, frequency smoothness and extension, in the bass region (roughly from 20 Hz to 500 Hz) contribute to the sense of musicality, tightness and whatever adjectives one wants to use, for bass quality. Whether you use Ported or sealed subwoofer is almost irrelevant .. if these are competent and used within their limitations.

 

[dualazmak]

Those notions of tightness and musicality of subwoofer and ... are mainly linked IMHO to integration with the mains a well as smoothness of frequency response in the bass range, including the portion of bass covered where the range where the subs response and mains response overlap... Again a matter of smoothness of FR at the end.

Essentially agree with you, @FrantzM!
Here is my identical diagram measured at my listening position (ref. #1,009).

As you can observe in above Fig.16, I do not like, I do not apply, too-much-smoothing on Fq-SPL spectrum which hides-out various room modes. I would rather prefer common smoothing factor (FFT size, in this case) throughout 20 Hz - 20 kHz which well visualizes various room modes.

Spoiler: Dr. Floyd Toole wrote...

In the end of Dr. Toole's wonderful post here, he wrote:
Don't worry about little ripples. When I see exceptionally smooth high-resolution room curves I strongly suspect that something wrong has been done. The measurement microphone is no substitute for two ears and a human brain.

And in his post here, Dr. Toole kindly wrote responding to my inquiry:
If properly done both swept tone and noise analysis should give identical answers. It is a choice. The principal difference is in the heating of the drivers in sustained tests at high sound levels - power compression. Low frequencies require longer averaging times.

Since I assume the above Fig.16 is a little bit “busy and/or complicated” for your eyes, the below Fig.18 representing the entire Fq-SPL of room air sound at listening position was prepared; I believe the diagram is self-explanatory for your easy understanding.

 

[Sokel]

Talking about distortion down low, it seems intuitive that any capable (on paper) amp can drive them with low distortion, right?

Have a look here now, same brand amps (icepower) ,exact same setup, repeatable 79457957 times:

The small one used is of the likes of this one (the module) :

Trinnov Amplitude 16 Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Trinnov Amplitude 16 home theater amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $12,500. We have an on-off switch and a faint display that shows whether the channels are bridged or not. Given the main application of being in a dark...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The bigger one is the biggest in line (1200as2)

Have a look:

(description on chart, don't look lower than 30Hz, that's my F3, no meaningful response lower than that other than what room helps)

Both WELL into their power abilities (a few W) but the result...

When audio gets through the door intuition jumps from the window.

 

[Oddball]

wtf that looks pristine!!! omg

ok i just checked your Slovak HT system and it makes sense now. 4 friggin subs and all of em are monsters. ZAMN!!!

Well - in some better rooms we see a ruler flat ART graphs (measurements narrowly focused on MLP) so this is pretty good, but it does get better.

With ART the 4 subs indeed could do the whole low end job with plenty of headroom. I am still in the testing stage, and not sure if my large bed layer speakers are contributing that much. They definitively provide support and bass localization which is generally good for a multi-channel setup. Below is the graph without ART sub support for the bed channels so they show their in-room response per Dirac. They all go a bit lower but seems like Dirac is being conservative and not giving them max workout.

 

[Wayne Highwood]

My subjective take on this discussion, as with most advanced sub discourse, is that it’s being directed specifically at me, and it’s telling me, “You idiot with your single SVS subwoofer instead of two or more, calibrated without microphone and room software and room treatments, why are you even alive, your happy audio world is nothing but delusion and darkness, your listening room with its soggy bass is a peat bog of stupidity, know FUD and tremble in fear.”

This is hilarious! I get the same feeling after seeing all these pretty graphs, making me reluctant to post any of my own lest I get hazed for using an archaic Omnimic V2 for sub calibration. The horror!

To you, and the OP, it's fine if you don't want to go to the expense of filling your room with multiple subs, or go full-OCD audio nut with the calibration. A single sub is better than no sub, and even a single can optimize for that one spot where you and your honey watch movies from quite well.

So I guess I'm saying that a little OCD nuttiness is warranted, whatever the case. A poorly integrated sub, even if you have only one, can adversely affect "musicality" (whatever that metaphorical term is referring to).

Think about what you're doing here: listening to music. Music is composed of instruments whose timbre is dictated by fundamentals and harmonics in specific patterns and proportions. And now you decide to add some subwoofage, effectively off-loading much of the fundamentals (and even lower harmonics). You now have disparate sources attempting to reproduce those paterns and proportions. That means you're also in the perhaps unenviable position of "speaker designer," needing to integrate the subs to maintain those timbral patterns in the correct proportions. While terribly easy to screw up, getting levels, slopes, and phase correct such that the response sums flat at crossover will only help to preserve "musicality." Further optimization is the icing on the cake, should you go full OCD audio nut, but getting the basics right goes a long way.

 

[Sokel]

This is hilarious! I get the same feeling after seeing all these pretty graphs, making me reluctant to post any of my own lest I get hazed for using an archaic Omnimic V2 for sub calibration. The horror!

To you, and the OP, it's fine if you don't want to go to the expense of filling your room with multiple subs, or go full-OCD audio nut with the calibration. A single sub is better than no sub, and even a single can optimize for that one spot where you and your honey watch movies from quite well.

So I guess I'm saying that a little OCD nuttiness is warranted, whatever the case. A poorly integrated sub, even if you have only one, can adversely affect "musicality" (whatever that metaphorical term is referring to).

Think about what you're doing here: listening to music. Music is composed of instruments whose timbre is dictated by fundamentals and harmonics in specific patterns and proportions. And now you decide to add some subwoofage, effectively off-loading much of the fundamentals (and even lower harmonics). You now have disparate sources attempting to reproduce those paterns and proportions. That means you're also in the perhaps unenviable position of "speaker designer," needing to integrate the subs to maintain those timbral patterns in the correct proportions. While terribly easy to screw up, getting levels, slopes, and phase correct such that the response sums flat at crossover will only help to preserve "musicality." Further optimization is the icing on the cake, should you go full OCD audio nut, but getting the basics right goes a long way.

If there was a magic trick around, I wouldn't want some better gear.

I would want the eleven-year-old me when I got my first walkman and "Making Movies" as a gift with it.
Late night, in my bed, listening to "Tunnel of Love" .

I will maybe forget my name, I'll never forget that, with it's noisy,elevated high end, probably V-shaped response and all.
First real happiness out of gear, even if there was decent stereo and instruments in my house.
That was mine, and mine alone.

Sometimes I wonder if this hobby is about getting back there for me, not with headphones though, I'm too old to tolerate them for long any more.

(It goes without saying that I have REW's RTA window right in front of me right now, messing with my stuff )

 

[Jiraya369]

This is hilarious! I get the same feeling after seeing all these pretty graphs, making me reluctant to post any of my own lest I get hazed for using an archaic Omnimic V2 for sub calibration. The horror!

To you, and the OP, it's fine if you don't want to go to the expense of filling your room with multiple subs, or go full-OCD audio nut with the calibration. A single sub is better than no sub, and even a single can optimize for that one spot where you and your honey watch movies from quite well.

So I guess I'm saying that a little OCD nuttiness is warranted, whatever the case. A poorly integrated sub, even if you have only one, can adversely affect "musicality" (whatever that metaphorical term is referring to).

Think about what you're doing here: listening to music. Music is composed of instruments whose timbre is dictated by fundamentals and harmonics in specific patterns and proportions. And now you decide to add some subwoofage, effectively off-loading much of the fundamentals (and even lower harmonics). You now have disparate sources attempting to reproduce those paterns and proportions. That means you're also in the perhaps unenviable position of "speaker designer," needing to integrate the subs to maintain those timbral patterns in the correct proportions. While terribly easy to screw up, getting levels, slopes, and phase correct such that the response sums flat at crossover will only help to preserve "musicality." Further optimization is the icing on the cake, should you go full OCD audio nut, but getting the basics right goes a long way.

yk thanks for being a real one, i was also thinking the same thing, the benefits of having a sub far outweigh the cons of a "non musical" one. Yeah it's a pain getting it to sound good but at least it will, and as i love bass, any low end thump is better than none

 

[Oddball]

I was a bit older when I got my first walkman and looking back that was probably the most important experience in my audio life for a variety of reasons.

But we get older and we do make it more complicated and less fun. For one thing if anyone dislikes REW, that would be me...too much of a good thing will turn out to be a bad thing at the end. But yeah, would not want to listen anything that is not REW-ed though....

But afraid that with all the REW, ART and excessive hardware, I will not be able to experience the sheer excitement that the a simple walkman bought...

 

[Jiraya369]

If there was a magic trick around, I wouldn't want some better gear.

I would want the eleven-year-old me when I got my first walkman and "Making Movies" as a gift with it.
Late night, in my bed, listening to "Tunnel of Love" .

I will maybe forget my name, I'll never forget that, with it's noisy,elevated high end, probably V-shaped response and all.
First real happiness out of gear, even if there was decent stereo and instruments in my house.
That was mine, and mine alone.

Sometimes I wonder if this hobby is about getting back there for me, not with headphones though, I'm too old to tolerate them for long any more.

(It goes without saying that I have REW's RTA window right in front of me right now, messing with my stuff )

that's beautiful and so real, thanks for this. Nice read.

 

[Jiraya369]

I was a bit older when I got my first walkman and looking back that was probably the most important experience in my audio life for a variety of reasons.

But we get older and we do make it more complicated and less fun. For one thing if anyone dislikes REW, that would be me...too much of a good thing will turn out to be a bad thing at the end. But yeah, would not want to listen anything that is not REW-ed though....

But afraid that with all the REW, ART and excessive hardware, I will not be able to experience the sheer excitement that the a simple walkman bought...

that's haunting honestly, how close have you gotten to that experience when building stereo setups and stuff?

 

[Doodski]

I was a bit older when I got my first walkman and looking back that was probably the most important experience in my audio life for a variety of reasons.

But we get older and we do make it more complicated and less fun. For one thing if anyone dislikes REW, that would be me...too much of a good thing will turn out to be a bad thing at the end. But yeah, would not want to listen anything that is not REW-ed though....

But afraid that with all the REW, ART and excessive hardware, I will not be able to experience the sheer excitement that the a simple walkman bought...

I had heard of and saw magazine images of Sony Walkman branded stuff when it was new product. My oldest brother returned from a foreign trip and for some reason he gifted to me at my age of ~12 a brand new gift wrapped portable cassette player device that hung off a strap that went around one's neck or hung off a shoulder. He said it was larger than a Sony Walkman and was better too he decided after test driving it compared to the new Sony Walkman stuff that where selling in the store at the major sized city where he found these devices for sale. So I was very stoked to receive such a device in the early 1980s. I had something no other kids had and it cranked too. It had a 5 band EQ that was virtually not existent at the time in anything, nobody anywhere knew the brand name when they saw it, it was about 3 times the size of a Sony Walkman, had sliders for balance, volume and EQ, used C cell batteries and went way way louder than any Sony Walkman too. I was overjoyed, amazed that it could sound so good with the 5 band EQ and excellent over the ear headphones and it went very very freaking loud too. I wore it everyday everywhere for years and I always budgeted for and kept extra batteries for it and made custom compilation cassette tapes wherever I could receive permission to make when visiting people or at my 2nd oldest brother's place where he had a new Kenwood cassette deck and a nice turntable that I could use for recording tapes for my listening pleasure. I was exclusively in my opinion the most well equipped walking listener of cassette based portable music gear in the entire region!

 

[RexrothPigeon]

so the thread about subwoofer characteristics is now nostalgia storytime down at the nursing home

 

[Jiraya369]

I had heard of and saw magazine images of Sony Walkman branded stuff when it was new product. My oldest brother returned from a foreign trip and for some reason he gifted to me at my age of ~12 a brand new gift wrapped portable cassette player device that hung off a strap that went around one's neck or hung off a shoulder. He said it was larger than a Sony Walkman and was better too he decided after test driving it compared to the new Sony Walkman stuff that where selling in the store at the major sized city where he found these devices for sale. So I was very stoked to receive such a device in the early 1980s. I had something no other kids had and it cranked too. It had a 5 band EQ that was virtually not existent at the time in anything, nobody anywhere knew the brand name when they saw it, it was about 3 times the size of a Sony Walkman, had sliders for balance, volume and EQ, used C cell batteries and went way way louder than any Sony Walkman too. I was overjoyed, amazed that it could sound so good with the 5 band EQ and excellent over the ear headphones and it went very very freaking loud too. I wore it everyday everywhere for years and I always budgeted for and kept extra batteries for it and made custom compilation cassette tapes wherever I could receive permission to make when visiting people or at my 2nd oldest brother's place where he had a new Kenwood cassette deck and a nice turntable that I could use for recording tapes for my listening pleasure. I was exclusively in my opinion the most well equipped walking listener of cassette based portable music gear in the entire region!

badass story my friend

 

[bmc0]

so the thread about subwoofer characteristics is now nostalgia storytime down at the nursing home

OP seems to be enjoying storytime, so why not? It's not like there's much else to say about the original question.