CSS Criton 3TD-X Kit Speaker Review

[audiobasha]

The finished CSS 3TD speakers are $5500…

Shop | CSS

Shop our great selection of high quality speaker kits and fully finished options. Our DIY speaker kits cover a wide range of prices for every audiophile budget.

www.css-audio.com

correct. The CSS Typhon is on sale for $3K -- $2.5K cheaper than the built 3TD-X. I wonder how they compare...

 

[ROOSKIE]

I'm not sure why you are saying it's not possible.

You have a fairly typical amount of directivity error for a naked 1"+6/6.5".
The tweeter is wide while it hands off to the beaming mid in the 2-5k zone.
You did very fine given the constraint of a naked 1" and 6" driver but with other designs it is possible to have much smoother horizontal directivity.
It is not possible to have smooth directivity between a dome 1" driver and a concave 6" driver crossed @2700hrz on a rectangular baffle without waveguides. The physics does not allow for it.
The 1" dome tweeters dispersion will be much wider vs the 6" concave woofer without waveguides or highly shaped baffles. Again you did well given your chosen drivers and box, but less so in the context of what is possible when using other drivers and waveguides and box shapes in other designs.

The problem with bunching, the off axis does not match the on, so reflections are hot in the bunch and PEQ does not work well in this area to correct frequency errors.
Again you did well for the constrained design, FWIIW I did rate 'great'.

All of the examples below that have smooth horizontal directivity are using large waveguides, well actually the KEF R1 is using a medium sized one.

Here is the JBL 4329 see the off axis vs on at the same area, much smoother and very little bunching, also very constant directivity

Same for the Klipsch, no horizontal bunching but a narrower beam width and more fall of in the highs off axis, but very smooth fall off. Superb example here.

The Klipsch RP-600 has uneven frequency response but superb directivity and thus is very easy to fix with PEQ. So that speakers sounds superb when EQd, see how the horizontal response falls off so smoothly. (Superb sound when EQd for flat on axis.)

The BMR Monitor has horizontal bunching and errors, BUT its dispersion is so wide that in any typical room they will have no effect as all reflections will match the on axis. Look how wide that tweeter still is at 6-9k, crazy.

The Arendal 1723 Monitor

And the KEF Reference 1meta, pretty good for a small waveguide. Very expensive though.

 

[Ktacos]

Finest hand writing I've ever seen.

 

[cavedriver]

It is not possible to have smooth directivity between a dome 1" driver and a concave 6" driver crossed @2700hrz on a rectangular baffle without waveguides. The physics does not allow for it.
The 1" dome tweeters dispersion will be much wider vs the 6" concave woofer without waveguides or highly shaped baffles. Again you did well given your chosen drivers and box, but less so in the context of what is possible when using other drivers and waveguides and box shapes in other designs.

Granted it's a 5.5" cone and the crossover is around 2200 Hz, but the Ascend Sierra V2 looks pretty smooth for just a 1" dome and concave woofer in a rectangular box.

 

[thewas]

What also often is ignored and in my experience unfortunately audible in typical home listening spaces and distances are discontinuities in the total sound power which happen more often in non-coaxial designs and can be seen in the total directivity index.

 

[RickS]

correct. The CSS Typhon is on sale for $3K -- $2.5K cheaper than the built 3TD-X. I wonder how they compare...

Seems unlikely we will ever know. Without even basic measurements and that CSS replaced them with the 3TXDs, does not make me want to take a chance on them even at the clearance price. There is another thread here about the Typhons so rather not derail a review thread.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Finest hand writing I've ever seen.

Done with a mouse.
You know, it took awhile to for me to make that post. I do think the information is clear enough. Handwriting aside, was it interesting or informative in your view ?

Granted it's a 5.5" cone and the crossover is around 2200 Hz, but the Ascend Sierra V2 looks pretty smooth for just a 1" dome and concave woofer in a rectangular box.
View attachment 408086

Yes, that speaker and a couple others by Ascend are textbook examples of that particular design style pushed to the limit. It still has minor directivity error from 2-4.5k where the tweeter is wider than the mid and somewhat out of phase. They mitigated it by creating an on axis dip and aiming for smoth steady state in-room output/PIR. A small well designed wave guide could solve that by focusing the beam and setting the tweeter back a little for slightly better time alighnment. That time alighning could be done even better/easier with DSP in an active version as well.
Is the error level here going to matter in practice I can't say. Certainly depends on the listner. Objectively there is still room for more mastery of the response and directivity even in the Ascend and def more room in the CSS Criton 3TD-X.

At any rate, my original intention was point out that the CSS Criton 3TD-X still has notable, although understandable, directivity error.

 

[Kerry Armes]

You have a fairly typical amount of directivity error for a naked 1"+6/6.5".
The tweeter is wide while it hands off to the beaming mid in the 2-5k zone.
You did very fine given the constraint of a naked 1" and 6" driver but with other designs it is possible to have much smoother horizontal directivity.
It is not possible to have smooth directivity between a dome 1" driver and a concave 6" driver crossed @2700hrz on a rectangular baffle without waveguides. The physics does not allow for it.
The 1" dome tweeters dispersion will be much wider vs the 6" concave woofer without waveguides or highly shaped baffles. Again you did well given your chosen drivers and box, but less so in the context of what is possible when using other drivers and waveguides and box shapes in other designs.

We never stated we have perfect horizontal polars. We know how to achieve this and have done it in other designs we have built. We stated that we have a very wide response with an even directivity. Amir's measurements show this. We are wider than a typical speaker and have a smooth directivity and almost ideal in-room response. As seen in the directivity index, it is almost identical to the Philharmonic HT Tower.

I also want to point out that bunching will be reduced significantly between 2-5 kHz in "most" standard tweeter designs by the use of larger edge treatments. That is why we are testing ways to send out faceted baffles that are easy to finish. Additionally, Dennis uses a broad elevation across the midrange on most of his designs to counteract the off-axis response dip in that region. We feel this makes the speaker sound too forward and typically avoid this type of compensation, instead opting for a small dip on-axis in areas that might have peaking off-axis. We feel this is a better compromise and creates a more enjoyable sound across a broader range of music.

I'm sure some people will like the Philharmonic better and some people will like our speaker better and that is totally fine. We aren't trying to twist anyone's arm and tell you our speaker is the best ever and definitely not saying it measures the best ever. As Amir stated: "Objectively, the 3TD-X comes close to our target for frequency response and aces distortion measurements... Subjective listening tests impressed me more than objective data, putting a smile on my face on track after track," and that's exactly what we are targeting. If you are ever in the Detroit area, come by for a listen and hear them in person for yourself.

 

[Juhazi]

I think that CSS Triton measures very well for a traditional 3-way. It's totla DI is smooth because vertical compensates for horizontal in 2-5kHz range. I like low DI speakers more but in echoey apartments more directivity suites better most hifists - better imaging etc. Shallow waveguides/tweeters offer some compromise, eg. SEAS DXT

Heissmann Acoustics | DXT-MON RLY | Monitor speaker

Compact, passive monitor speaker with Seas DXT 27TBCD / GB (H1499-06) and Seas Prestige ER15RLY (H1455).

heissmann-acoustics.de

My 3-way with 5" mid and dome (not normalized), Hor. DI stays below 5

 

[ROOSKIE]

We never stated we have perfect horizontal polars. We know how to achieve this and have done it in other designs we have built. We stated that we have a very wide response with an even directivity. Amir's measurements show this. We are wider than a typical speaker and have a smooth directivity and almost ideal in-room response. As seen in the directivity index, it is almost identical to the Philharmonic HT Tower.

I also want to point out that bunching will be reduced significantly between 2-5 kHz in "most" standard tweeter designs by the use of larger edge treatments. That is why we are testing ways to send out faceted baffles that are easy to finish. Additionally, Dennis uses a broad elevation across the midrange on most of his designs to counteract the off-axis response dip in that region. We feel this makes the speaker sound too forward and typically avoid this type of compensation, instead opting for a small dip on-axis in areas that might have peaking off-axis. We feel this is a better compromise and creates a more enjoyable sound across a broader range of music.

I'm sure some people will like the Philharmonic better and some people will like our speaker better and that is totally fine. We aren't trying to twist anyone's arm and tell you our speaker is the best ever and definitely not saying it measures the best ever. As Amir stated: "Objectively, the 3TD-X comes close to our target for frequency response and aces distortion measurements... Subjective listening tests impressed me more than objective data, putting a smile on my face on track after track," and that's exactly what we are targeting. If you are ever in the Detroit area, come by for a listen and hear them in person for yourself.

1st I think it is amazing that as the manufacturer you sent this unit in and have been a part of the discussion. 5/5 for that. It is a big risk, hope it is fun/useful for you in meaningful ways. I also do like your speaker reviewed here.

Again I did vote 'great', (well I suppose I'd vote 3.5/4 but in this case I rounded up).
I do think the speaker is very nice from what I can see here on paper(I have never heard it) and I really appreciate you offering both finished and DIY Kit options. I think that is very important to the hobby and hard to find... and actually I value that very, very much. (not with those $500/1300 caps though) I really hope you are enjoying your company and making money and staying in biz. Certainly if I visit Detroit I will stop in, I'd love to and so would my wife who loves this stuff now. (My wife and I drive to Toronto from Minneapolis from time to time, yet I've actually never been to Detroit. Was a huge Barry Sanders fan as a kid. I'll have to make a couple days for the city next time. How is the coffee there? I like my urban cafe scene. Yah, I'm kind of a near 50yr old former hipster. Sorry.)

Per your points here, I do understand. As a hobbyist I am enjoying the nerdy conversation and the in-depth discussion.

Tone is weird in forums and other text only situations so to be clear all of my points made that are critical and/or examine the design in this thread fall under 'constructive criticism', purely. I enjoy dissection and analysis, and maybe somethings said will help make even better/additional future offerings. Directivity and waveguides came up so I dove in a bit, I myself was not focused on contrasting with the Philharmonic speaker, rather naked tweeters vs designs with larger waveguides. I wanted to show how some well made waveguides can overcome most of the horizontal directivity issues, even in a sharp edged box.

I do own the BMR monitor and love the set, FWIIW that model is not forward sounding here. I have 25+ pairs of speakers. That said Philharmonic pricing is special and an outlier. Really no typical manufacturer could make it happen without greater margins. Saying that so folks comparing the prices can see that your prices are still a good value even if the Phil costs less. I think for $2500 DIY or $5500 nicely finished the Criton 3TD-X is a sweet deal and great value proposition... and supports a small business to boot. HiFi is filled with poor value products (Børresen X3 anyone?), yours is a high value one.

 

[Kerry Armes]

1st I think it is amazing that as the manufacturer you sent this unit in and have been a part of the discussion. 5/5 for that. It is a big risk, hope it is fun/useful for you in meaningful ways. I also do like your speaker reviewed here.

Again I did vote 'great', (well I suppose I'd vote 3.5/4 but in this case I rounded up).
I do think the speaker is very nice from what I can see here on paper(I have never heard it) and I really appreciate you offering both finished and DIY Kit options. I think that is very important to the hobby and hard to find... and actually I value that very, very much. (not with those $500/1300 caps though) I really hope you are enjoying your company and making money and staying in biz. Certainly if I visit Detroit I will stop in, I'd love to and so would my wife who loves this stuff now. (My wife and I drive to Toronto from Minneapolis from time to time, yet I've actually never been to Detroit. Was a huge Barry Sanders fan as a kid. I'll have to make a couple days for the city next time. How is the coffee there? I like my urban cafe scene. Yah, I'm kind of a near 50yr old former hipster. Sorry.)

Per your points here, I do understand. As a hobbyist I am enjoying the nerdy conversation and the in-depth discussion.

Tone is weird in forums and other text only situations so to be clear all of my points made that are critical and/or examine the design in this thread fall under 'constructive criticism', purely. I enjoy dissection and analysis, and maybe somethings said will help make even better/additional future offerings. Directivity and waveguides came up so I dove in a bit, I myself was not focused on contrasting with the Philharmonic speaker, rather naked tweeters vs designs with larger waveguides. I wanted to show how some well made waveguides can overcome most of the horizontal directivity issues, even in a sharp edged box.

I do own the BMR monitor and love the set, FWIIW that model is not forward sounding here. I have 25+ pairs of speakers. That said Philharmonic pricing is special and an outlier. Really no typical manufacturer could make it happen without greater margins. Saying that so folks comparing the prices can see that your prices are still a good value even if the Phil costs less. I think for $2500 DIY or $5500 nicely finished the Criton 3TD-X is a sweet deal and great value proposition... and supports a small business to boot. HiFi is filled with poor value products (Børresen X3 anyone?), yours is a high value one.

Thanks for your feedback and I do appreciate it and the debate. I also hope my tone didn't come off harsh either as it definitely can in frank online discussion where tone can be lost. I do think Dennis's stuff is a great value and a really goo sounding speaker but personal preferences are why this "hobby" exists in the first place. Ours is just slightly different than his. And yes, Dennis is a total outlier who has consistently under-priced his speakers.

In terms of Detroit, there are a lot of hipster areas but still a lot of really sketch or even totally abandoned areas. We are outside Detroit in Plymouth, which is a wealthier suburb. The downtown is nice but it's more typically of the cookie cutter-ish scenic vacation town. Ann Arbor, where I live, is more in line with the urban cafe scene. I worked at a company before this which had offices in Portland and the people who came out to our office often described Ann Arbor as mini-Portland.

 

[Michigan2500hd]

For anybody who has built these or knows the internal construction, is the midrange driver in its own sealed compartment?

Yes it is. It shares a compartment with the tweeter and it uses the front half of the box. Meaning the woofers compartment goes all the way to the top of the tower behind the mids compartment.

 

[Michigan2500hd]

I'm about 75% done with my 3TDX with the middle crossover upgrade build.
I used 13 ply birch plywood and a solid 1-1/8 cherry front baffle with rounded over sides. Yes I chamfered the backside to avoid loading the woofers.
I ( being who I am, always looking to modify things) added a little to the height ( in the woofer compartment) and lined the inside with a stick on sound deadener. I also added a small chamber on the bottom and filled it with a poly grout just to add more weight to the bottom. I'll add outriggers as soon as I can find some I like.
I made my front baffle a tiny bit wider to accommodate wrapping the whole thing in birch door skin.
I'm also wanting to add some copper accents to the front but have not decided on how.
I am not by any means saying these changes will make for better sound, I just enjoy the journey.
I like doing little things to possibly improve performance when I'm building. I used rubber sheets behind the crossovers to pad them.
Doubled-sealed every panel in every compartment to eliminate any leakage and fastened the wires down to eliminate rattles.
I've been doing most of this one handed as I just had rotator cuff surgery and this keeps my mind occupied and off the pain.
I drove to CSS a couple weeks ago to meet the guys there and listen to the 3TDX as well as the Typhons.
They are a couple great guys and I was happy to do business with them.

 

[JudgeandInjury]

correct. The CSS Typhon is on sale for $3K -- $2.5K cheaper than the built 3TD-X. I wonder how they compare...

So these speakers are $5000+ and you have to build them yourself and the measurements are even that amazing. Earlier I compared these to pairs going for less than $2300 and found some that were absolutely a better deal. I really do not believe anyone would buy these unless they were only interested in having a fancy wood grain that cost a lot of money. I'd rather have KEF R7 Meta.

Edit: or Monitor Audio Silver 300 7G which is half the price.

 

[mjgeorge]

So these speakers are $5000+ and you have to build them yourself and the measurements are even that amazing. Earlier I compared these to pairs going for less than $2300 and found some that were absolutely a better deal. I really do not believe anyone would buy these unless they were only interested in having a fancy wood grain that cost a lot of money. I'd rather have KEF R7 Meta.

Edit: or Monitor Audio Silver 300 7G which is half the price.

No, the prebuilt 3TD-X is $5,500

It's also available as a kit.

If you build your own cabinet:
- The kit with the base crossover parts is $1,999
- The kit with the more expensive crossover parts is $2,499
- The kit with the most expensive crossover parts is $3,299

You can add a flat pack to the kit for $500

 

[a4eaudio]

So these speakers are $5000+ and you have to build them yourself

No. $5,000 is pre-built in custom cabinets.
$2,000 for the kit if you build it yourself.
[$4,500 and $1,800 with the current 10% off early Black Friday sale]

Edit: mjgeorge beat me to it.

 

[Michigan2500hd]

So these speakers are $5000+ and you have to build them yourself and the measurements are even that amazing. Earlier I compared these to pairs going for less than $2300 and found some that were absolutely a better deal. I really do not believe anyone would buy these unless they were only interested in having a fancy wood grain that cost a lot of money. I'd rather have KEF R7 Meta.

Edit: or Monitor Audio Silver 300 7G which is half the price.

No, the speakers for DIY are typically 2000 ( for standard crossovers) $5500 is for a pair of pre-built speakers.
I believe right now they're giving a extra 10% sale so knock off another $200. Much better to DIY than buy off a shelf.

 

[RickS]

No, the speakers for DIY are typically 2000 ( for standard crossovers) $5500 is for a pair of pre-built speakers.
I believe right now they're giving a extra 10% sale so knock off another $200. Much better to DIY than buy off a shelf.

While I empathize on DIY, have to concede that there are better values in this case.

Do you plan a build thread for your 3TDXes or maybe sharing a few pics?

 

[musicisair]

We never stated we have perfect horizontal polars. We know how to achieve this and have done it in other designs we have built. We stated that we have a very wide response with an even directivity. Amir's measurements show this. We are wider than a typical speaker and have a smooth directivity and almost ideal in-room response. As seen in the directivity index, it is almost identical to the Philharmonic HT Tower.

I also want to point out that bunching will be reduced significantly between 2-5 kHz in "most" standard tweeter designs by the use of larger edge treatments. That is why we are testing ways to send out faceted baffles that are easy to finish. Additionally, Dennis uses a broad elevation across the midrange on most of his designs to counteract the off-axis response dip in that region. We feel this makes the speaker sound too forward and typically avoid this type of compensation, instead opting for a small dip on-axis in areas that might have peaking off-axis. We feel this is a better compromise and creates a more enjoyable sound across a broader range of music.

I'm sure some people will like the Philharmonic better and some people will like our speaker better and that is totally fine. We aren't trying to twist anyone's arm and tell you our speaker is the best ever and definitely not saying it measures the best ever. As Amir stated: "Objectively, the 3TD-X comes close to our target for frequency response and aces distortion measurements... Subjective listening tests impressed me more than objective data, putting a smile on my face on track after track," and that's exactly what we are targeting. If you are ever in the Detroit area, come by for a listen and hear them in person for yourself.

I'm thinking of building the 3TD-X and the XC soon (and might attempt to design and build a custom surround/ceiling speaker using the LDW6 driver). I'd build the enclosures myself though; using solid wood for at least the front baffle (so laminating the edges isn't a concern).

Do you have any prototype designs/CAD with these edge treatments available to share?

 

[Kerry Armes]

I'm thinking of building the 3TD-X and the XC soon (and might attempt to design and build a custom surround/ceiling speaker using the LDW6 driver). I'd build the enclosures myself though; using solid wood for at least the front baffle (so laminating the edges isn't a concern).

Do you have any prototype designs/CAD with these edge treatments available to share?

No CAD at the moment as we haven't started CNC'ing anything. We prototype on the table saw first. What we are looking at first is a 30 degree angle with the cut being 2.5" in from the top corner and 11.5" down the side for the side edges and another 30 degree cut the width of the top starting at 2-2.5" down from the top edge. The center will be very hard to do facets on because the tweeter is very close to the top edge. You can hit all the corners of the cabinet with a chamfer around the woofers to make a better visual match though. I'd love to see your results when you finish!