Cryogenic treatment ?

[theREALdotnet]

incidentally, a few weeks ago I was reading a study in superconductivity and copper and what not in an IEEE article, I can look it up and share if anyone else wants to test it.

In related news, seems like they cracked room-temperature superconductivity. Just lower the room temperature to 20K...

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I thought this was about using liquid nitrogen ear drops to break up ear wax or sumptin',

Anyway I know nothing says scientific like seeing a guy in a white lab coat with giant rubber gloves and a big mask like they have on those rad suits, using giant tongs, to dip wires into a vat of liquid nitrogen with all that vapor coming off colored by the blue halogen lights overhead. Makes me want to put another $8k on the plastic, that's for sure.

 

[JSmith]

JSmith

 

[egellings]

I was just thinking about this over the weekend actually! As is often the case, myth (snake oil) can have some element of truth.

Is there any scenario where Cryo provides any valid benefit from an electrical or mechanical/metallurgical perspective (in any engineering field)? Why is this even a “thing”?

Non science based opinion. My BS meter goes to red regarding any of the audio based claims.

If there were any audio benefits to the procedure, they would be microscopic and inaudible, likely even to the finest measuring microphones. As for any benefit to electronics, I am not aware of any. Cryogenic treatment may have value in areas of metallurgy, maybe. The benefit of cryogenic treatment in audio is the advertising copy that can be generated with claims about it.

 

[pablolie]

If there were any audio benefits to the procedure, they would be microscopic and inaudible, likely even to the finest measuring microphones. As for any benefit to electronics, I am not aware of any. Cryogenic treatment may have value in areas of metallurgy, maybe. The benefit of cryogenic treatment in audio is the advertising copy that can be generated with claims about it.

It does, it is used in aerospace and defense and precision machinery to harden the material and yet make it more "tensile". *If* there was any great conductivity gain, there are applications that are far more mission critical than audio that would jump all over it... curiously they don't.

I always laugh when some snake oil charlatan tries to convince the world audio is a very demanding application at tops two digits of Mbit/s... that is laughably undemanding these days. Both from a bandwidth and latency/jitter and packet loss perspective (the network QoS trifecta). Try 800 Gbit/s and AI datacenter training workloads if you want to think "demanding", audio is trivial these days (but don't tell the boutique companies that still can't engineer audio equipment to a competent standard and make wild claims about why the clear shortfalls are "design intent").

 

[DanielT]

".. a cooling process lasting 72 hours .." is not a very convincing start to the narrative. What temperature, with which metal compound?

Cryogenic freezing at very low temperatures does indeed change the structure of metals permanently. But its applicability in audio needs to be explained, not just thrown randomly about as "better". I have heard it is used in precision tools, aerospace and defense, and some music instruments to maintain longer term accuracy.

Regarding vaccum tubes. Let's say there is a permanent change after a cryo freezing process. How do you know if it is for the better or for the worse?
Even if this is the case with permanent change after cryo freezing, I find it hard to believe there will be an audible difference before and after this is done.

Besides, I'll take some at random, how do you know that these tubes have really been cryo frozen? It could just be something the seller says:

JAN Philips 6922 Cryo treated double triode ECC88 6DJ8 E88CC preamp valve tube | eBay UK

JAN Philips 6922 Cryo treated double triode ECC88 6DJ8 E88CC preamp valve tube. Cryo treated by Frozen Solid Audio, while customers loved the results, we had to discontinue due to the high percentage of tubes that were damaged during freezing.

www.ebay.co.uk

But okay they are claimed to have been cryo treated by:

About us | Frozen Solid - Deep Cryogenic Company

Frozen Solid - Deep Cryogenic Treatment Service is Europe's longest established and most experienced Deep Cryogenic Treatment Centre. We are a US/UK partnership founded out of a background encompassing performance engineering and military engineering experience with links world-wide. Frozen...

www.frozensolid.co.uk

Edit:
A bit of an anticlimax in that ad. I see it now, the seller says: Cryo treated by Frozen Solid Audio, while customers loved the results, we had to discontinue due to the high percentage of tubes that were damaged during freezing.

 

[Soandso]

… the audible differences are vastly overstated.

This 2002 research by B.A. Whisler of 4 post-cryogenic frozen trumpets found according to professional musicians' evaluation (not personal playing) the 2nd best was the untreated one ("control"). Then too some of the detected changes were rated as desirable and still other changes unwanted.

 

[ivayvr]

If they leave it in a freezer for a week, they are risking triggering an uncontrolled nuclear fusion with dire consequences!
Don't try that at home! It would probably void your freezer warranty!

 

[coonmanx]

When I first saw this thread I was thinking that I had seen something cryogenically treated but could not then remember what it was. Then it came back to me. It was tubes...

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Mmm, snake oil ice cream

 

[Waxx]

Cryogenic treatment and ceramicization (the opposite) are both usefull for a lot of reasons in electronics, but mostly not for electric reasons. It's more about durablity, often in extreme conditions. Conditions that some simple electronics like audio gear will never see.

Ceramicization is sometimes used in moving parts of speakers (spider, cone, ...) to make it less resonant in a certain way, but it also makes it more brittle and it's not always a good thing in my experience. But some exceptions do work like with certain Mark Audio drivers where the copper alloy cone and/or the fiber spider is ceramicizationed. But those are very specific for the material used there (the designer is a chemical engineer from origin) and does not make a world of difference to be honest, altough it's measurable as the resonances of the cone are damped more (but very little). The ceramicization of the spider is not done anymore for those drivers, as they found a better way to make them without in the actual models. It was done in the earlier models that are now NLA and was the reason why they needed a very long breakin (100h) at low volume as the spider needed to loosen up a bit.

But in general, these claims are pure snake oil, especially when they cost a lot and should make a big difference. And certainly for audio electronics, i can not see the advantage nor saw measurements that proved anything.

 

[Chrispy]

LOL

 

[pinger]

Has to be treated as snake oil until such time as the manufacturer produces legit double blind tests showing audible differences with and without the cryo components. Dont hold your breath LOL

 

[egellings]

Regarding vaccum tubes. Let's say there is a permanent change after a cryo freezing process. How do you know if it is for the better or for the worse?
Even if this is the case with permanent change after cryo freezing, I find it hard to believe there will be an audible difference before and after this is done.

Besides, I'll take some at random, how do you know that these tubes have really been cryo frozen? It could just be something the seller says:
View attachment 474623

JAN Philips 6922 Cryo treated double triode ECC88 6DJ8 E88CC preamp valve tube | eBay UK

JAN Philips 6922 Cryo treated double triode ECC88 6DJ8 E88CC preamp valve tube. Cryo treated by Frozen Solid Audio, while customers loved the results, we had to discontinue due to the high percentage of tubes that were damaged during freezing.

www.ebay.co.uk

But okay they are claimed to have been cryo treated by:

About us | Frozen Solid - Deep Cryogenic Company

Frozen Solid - Deep Cryogenic Treatment Service is Europe's longest established and most experienced Deep Cryogenic Treatment Centre. We are a US/UK partnership founded out of a background encompassing performance engineering and military engineering experience with links world-wide. Frozen...

www.frozensolid.co.uk

Edit:
A bit of an anticlimax in that ad. I see it now, the seller says: Cryo treated by Frozen Solid Audio, while customers loved the results, we had to discontinue due to the high percentage of tubes that were damaged during freezing.

If the pins and glass don't expand and contract at the same rate over such extreme temperature changes, the airtight seal could be lost.

 

[bmc0]

[...] we had to discontinue due to the high percentage of tubes that were damaged during freezing.

Makes sense; such cold temperatures will put a lot of stress on the glass-to-metal seals around the pins.

There doesn't seem to be much info regarding the effect of cryogenic treatment on annealed (soft) copper, but I did manage to find a patent that claims a ~3% reduction in resistivity. Nothing to get too excited about for audio applications . Most literature I found is focused on improving mechanical (and electrical, to some degree) properties of hard copper and copper alloys.

 

[xray]

Cryogenic treatment is not for me. I'm not a fan of Coldplay.

 

[Roland68]

Regarding vaccum tubes. Let's say there is a permanent change after a cryo freezing process. How do you know if it is for the better or for the worse?
Even if this is the case with permanent change after cryo freezing, I find it hard to believe there will be an audible difference before and after this is done.

Besides, I'll take some at random, how do you know that these tubes have really been cryo frozen? It could just be something the seller says:
View attachment 474623

JAN Philips 6922 Cryo treated double triode ECC88 6DJ8 E88CC preamp valve tube | eBay UK

JAN Philips 6922 Cryo treated double triode ECC88 6DJ8 E88CC preamp valve tube. Cryo treated by Frozen Solid Audio, while customers loved the results, we had to discontinue due to the high percentage of tubes that were damaged during freezing.

www.ebay.co.uk

But okay they are claimed to have been cryo treated by:

About us | Frozen Solid - Deep Cryogenic Company

Frozen Solid - Deep Cryogenic Treatment Service is Europe's longest established and most experienced Deep Cryogenic Treatment Centre. We are a US/UK partnership founded out of a background encompassing performance engineering and military engineering experience with links world-wide. Frozen...

www.frozensolid.co.uk

Edit:
A bit of an anticlimax in that ad. I see it now, the seller says: Cryo treated by Frozen Solid Audio, while customers loved the results, we had to discontinue due to the high percentage of tubes that were damaged during freezing.

Makes sense; such cold temperatures will put a lot of stress on the glass-to-metal seals around the pins.

For high-quality products, these are quartz glass/tungsten or niobium compounds, or even borosilicate glass for lower temperatures.
With high-quality processing, cryogenization is not a problem.

 

[Roland68]

What's your opinion about it?
Is there any science that supports it?
View attachment 474388View attachment 474389

I was just thinking about this over the weekend actually! As is often the case, myth (snake oil) can have some element of truth.

Is there any scenario where Cryo provides any valid benefit from an electrical or mechanical/metallurgical perspective (in any engineering field)? Why is this even a “thing”?

Non science based opinion. My BS meter goes to red regarding any of the audio based claims.

Many products in the technical and electrical sectors couldn't be manufactured at all without cryogenization, or their durability would be only a fraction of that. In many industrial sectors, cryogenization and heat treatments are integrated into manufacturing processes.

This can also lead to improvements in electrical components and conductor materials, but I don't believe these effects have a metrological impact on a circuit. Often, it's just about increased performance and/or service life.

 

[Salt]

Many products in the technical and electrical sectors couldn't be manufactured at all without cryogenization, or their durability would be only a fraction of that. In many industrial sectors, cryogenization and heat treatments are integrated into manufacturing processes.

This can also lead to improvements in electrical components and conductor materials, but I don't believe these effects have a metrological impact on a circuit. Often, it's just about increased performance and/or service life.

This is an all or nothing reply. I would be interested in more details, especially what products needs cryogenenization.
Thanks.

 

[Roland68]

This is an all or nothing reply. I would be interested in more details, especially what products needs cryogenenization.
Thanks.

You, and many others here, don't realize what a huge field of application this is. Pharmaceuticals/medicines, hardening processes for steel and other metals and alloys, structural modifications of various materials (including plastics and composite materials), the food industry, electronics, etc.
Just google "cryogenization in industry" or "cryogenic steel hardening," just as an example.

In electrical engineering/electronics, such processes are used, for example, in high-performance switches/relays, which increase switching capacity/service life five to tenfold.
In many areas, these processes are subject to secrecy, which is understandable, as no manufacturer wants to reveal their competitive advantage.

You should find some information on the websites of refolution, cryospain, and others.
There are also countless scientific papers, diploma and doctoral theses on the subject, as well as patents. You should also find some information about applications there.