Crown XLi 800 Power Amplifier Review

[Ron Texas]

@GrimSurfer you are wrong.

Anyone who disagrees with your sweeping, unsustainable claims is greeted with personal attacks.

 

[amirm]

Let's not keep arguing here. There is no new information being conveyed.

 

[KozmoNaut]

One can easily stare oneself blind on graphs, measurements and spec sheets.

You don't listen with your eyes, after all. Controlled blind listening tests exist for a reason. I know of no manufacturer that only measures their gear and never listens to it.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Just found a post (below) that helps explain why the distortion graphs on the Yamaha PA amp don't follow the usual trace. It's a feedback error that rises with frequency. Instead of choosing a frequency roll-off to limit distortion, the designer appears to have accepted higher distortion.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eadphone-amp-reviewed.9446/page-6#post-249572

It's an interesting trade off that one usually doesn't see in home audio.

 

[cistercian]

Low price, high power, built in DSP and militant stupidity, of course. I could take it back to Guitar Center after 45 days and found it sounded good enough that there was no need to do that. Not too many around here will believe, this but an SINAD of 75db is good enough.

Being a cretin of the highest order I strongly recommend the Crown XLS drivecore 2 amps. I got tired of recapping my ancient
Pioneer SX727 and bought the cheapest and weakest XLS...a 1002. I was totally thrilled with how it sounded...and was then not
too happy with my ancient Bose 301 speakers...they did not go high or low enough to suit me.

Being a person who remembers the 70s well I decided to buy a good 3 way speaker...back in the 70s they were common
home stereo speakers. I did not find any consumer speakers that I liked so I bought some sound reinforcement/PA
speakers from JBL. I chose SRX 835 passive speakers and bought a Crown XLS 2502 Drivecore 2 amp to power them.

Mission accomplished. Everything sounds fantastic through them...very high SPL is easy too. Detail and imaging are EPIC.
Bass is superb. I have the best stereo now I have ever owned. Unlike most consumer speakers full frequency response is
published by the manufacturer. The speakers are heavy at 95lbs each and different in construction compared to the powered
version. The powered version has a much simpler front baffle and it uses built in EQ to be flat. The passives have 4 port tubes
under the 15 inch woofer...and the passive crossover network is a thing of beauty. The resistor board is in a vented portion
of the top of the cab for cooling.
Way overkill for home use. Which for me, is just right.

 

[cistercian]

I don't think that a little more bias current to push a class B amp into AB mode has any serious effect on the overall thermal dissipation. The highest dissipation is at much higher loads where the bias current definitely plays no role in the sum of all dissipated power.

@amirm: is it possible that there are bias trimming pots in the amp which have not been calibrated at all? If yes it may make sense to increase the bias while watching THD to see if it drops.

It is critical in a high precision/linearity amplifier that the active devices have identical conduction curves.
The fact that the curves change with temperature complicates things. Are all the devices at the same temp?
are all the feedback/bias components precise? In a affordable AB amplifier with a "decent" power supply
the tolerances are going to be standard off the shelf grade...not stellar. Adjustments might improve it!
But it is not worth it.
I am no purist seeking distortion levels below what I can hear...I am an unabashed Class D fanboy. I like
the Crown XLS amps a lot and have only gotten the fan to run at such high SPL the imminent arrival of
the police was a much higher concern.
I love an amp that stays cold to the touch. I have built class A amps that sounded great! They are also
great heaters. And the power supply has to be very robust...even at idle.
Class AB or AB2 does not interest me very much anymore for high power applications. The weight and heat
are both expensive.
Class B is used for push pull amps. It was common in old AM broadcast transmitters to have a big pair
of triodes in class B modulate the Class C RF amplifier. The transformers were huge and heavy because of
the 100 percent commercial duty cycle.

 

[cistercian]

The level of misconceptions and misinformation about live audio from home audio people continues to astound me. Some of these comments could only come from people with absolutely no experience with professional audio products. As someone with a bit of experience in live sound, I regularly see home audio people who make all kinds of claims about professional audio, despite them having absolutely no experience in that segment. It's the "internet expert" syndrome.

The whole confusion about PA meaning either "public address", "pro audio", "power amplifier" or any number of other meanings is just the beginning. It also invariably includes a list of why pro audio gear is somehow completely unsuited for home use.

Crown advertises this amp as a power amplifier "suited for musicians, DJs, and entertainers as well as houses of worship, discos, and pubs", which are all segments that do have some expectation of sound quality. Not to a high quality home audio level, but certainly decent sound quality. Nowhere does it say it's targeted only at public address (ie. speaking or informational) systems.

Sure, most people don't need 300+WPC in their home systems. Some people do, and pro amps can provide that, without the ridiculous overpricing that happens in higher ranges of the home audio segment.

Particularly the "strength in the middle frequencies" claim is abject nonsense. A pro amp that doesn't provide linear frequency response will be thrown in the trash. If your amps have weird frequency response, it can be absolutely hell trying to EQ a venue with multiple wonky amps that don't match each others' frequency response.

Crown has made a mediocre amp in the XLi 800, we can agree on that. Your mistake is extrapolating from that and claiming every pro amp made is equally mediocre.

I do not think home audio aficionados have much awareness at how spectacular good pro level gear is.
Transducers, horn designs, DSP....the tools in the pro toolbox are amazing. I was at a show not too many years ago
and heard the JBL line array and decided then and there that a paradigm change had occurred.

Pro gear is also dollar/watt king!

 

[Ron Texas]

@cistercian you have probably noticed one member here went on a tear against all Crown amps. I have since put that sorry individual on ignore.

 

[KozmoNaut]

Pro gear is also dollar/watt king!

With those JBLs, your neighbors must love you.

...

I SAID, YOUR NEIGHBORS MUST LOVE YOU!

;-)

 

[cistercian]

With those JBLs, your neighbors must love you.

...

I SAID, YOUR NEIGHBORS MUST LOVE YOU!

;-)

One of my neighbors is a bar. My system is louder. I try to be considerate! I mostly use lower levels...
but on Friday night all bets are off!

 

[cistercian]

@cistercian you have probably noticed one member here went on a tear against all Crown amps. I have since put that sorry individual on ignore.

Yes...I saw. I find the prices for some audio amps just retarded. I am glad I tried the XLS amps. They are
very nice. I continue to be amazed how the case is still cold...even at high power. Having enough grunt to
really drive the 15 dual voice coil LF drivers is epic as well. I have an entirely different insight into
bass dynamics now.

I don't care what others may say too much. I know what I like and don't just jump on a bandwagon.
I think my Harmon group gear is epic and it works great for me. I even like how it looks!
Lots of folks lose their minds over minor differences in taste or nay say the choices one may make.
I have found it often to my advantage to try something different from the herds choice.

After I played a CD track my stepson has enjoyed for years his comment sums it up nicely:
" I heard things in that song I did not even know were there...damn!" He was amazed.

 

[JeffGB]

I have and use a Crown XLI 800, as well as a Crown XLS 1500, which I use on near-field Kef LS-50's. I'm more impressed by the XLS. It is cleaner and more detailed sounding than the XLI. The XLI is just as quiet as the XLS, doesn't have another analog-digital digital-analog conversion like the XLS does, but sounds slightly lacking in detail. Is the XLI lacking detail or is the XLS adding artifacts that make it sound more detailed? I also have an amplifier that should measure better than just about anything else around, a Sansui AU-X701. That amplifier sounds super clean, detailed and quiet, exceeding the others easily. The Sansui is rated at less than .005 THD from 20-20khz at full power of 100 watts per channel. Signal to noise ratio is rated at 110db. It has an actual balanced power amplifier that is floated from ground, unlike the Crown's Balanced input > unbalanced for volume control > balanced again to AD conversion then DA conversion > Output stage.

An interesting aside, the Crown XLS series of amplifiers uses the very same AD-DA chip as the Berhringer UAC204HD dac does. Imagine if Crown would replace that chip with a more modern 32 bit chipset with digital volume control to eliminate all that balanced/unbalanced/balanced stuff!

 

[Ron Texas]

I have and use a Crown XLI 800, as well as a Crown XLS 1500, which I use on near-field Kef LS-50's.

There are a few of us around here using Crown XLS amps with LS50's. I use the built in DSP for bass management. Not a near field guy myself.

 

[gene_stl]

I like Crown's Slogan

"Installs Anywhere...... Outperforms Everything"

 

[cistercian]

As the season approaches...I am playing various Gregorian Chant CD's through my system. It is amazing
how when the volume is adjusted correctly I am in the abbey church with my brothers. Epic.

 

[RichB]

"Installs Anywhere...... Outperforms Everything"

The Crown XLi 800 measured 58.6dB SINAD so the slogan should be "Outperforms a Couple of Things" but that would not be very good marketing

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/crown-xli-800-power-amplifier-review.9420/

- Rich

 

[LBec]

In the classic 1956 science fiction film Forbidden Planet, the extinct race of advanced beings of the planet Altair IV are known as the Krell. They were destroyed by their own technology.

In my personal opinion that was probably one of the all time great science fiction movies of all time.
Yes, I know this is an audio forum and not for movie reviews.

 

[LBec]

For hi-fi use, it is not something I would consider to drive full-range speakers. For subwoofer or active woofer duty, it would be fine.

Every so often the Crown XLI amps go on sale for ridiculously low prices (probably should have bought the XLI1500 for $170). If it happens to do that what would be a reasonable frequency range for an active woofer in a mid-fi setup?

 

[gab]

I didn't see it mentioned in this thread so I will add that Crown made a special version of the XLi 800 for Guitar Center a few years back under the part number X1000. It is identical to the XLi 800 with the exception of a different front face plate. Guitar Center would put them on sale for $100 from time to time. I got two of them for subwoofer duties. They have performed reliably for me over the past 3-4 years. Nice to see Amir's measurements.

gab

 

[AudioLover73]

In the review he states, "Ouch! We have very high distortion of 0.13 to 0.16%," but can you hear 0.16% distortion? I know I can't, especially when the source material is music and not a sine wave. You really think you're going to notice a 0.16% sound when the main tone is playing at 100% volume? I'll bet humans can't perceive distortion 10 times higher than that. Take a look at the "Perception and subjective evaluation" section in the article below.

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/human-hearing-distortion-audibility-part-3

It seems that many people ARE using these Crown amps in their HiFi systems, and based on their reviews, they seem to love them. So why do some discount them and tell them they can't be used in HiFi? Because they're not good enough? Have you used these exact amps before? If not, what are you basing your assertions on?

I agree with the last statement. The answer is, it is good enough when people can't tell a difference between amps using an ABX switcher, and I'm willing to bet many might be surprised by the results of such a test. If people can't tell a difference with objective certainty, why does it matter? What good is arming yourself with this information unless it explains a perceivable difference?

I had to take a step back because I was trying to base my amplifier purchase on the SINAD chart, when in reality, likely most of these amps would be perfectly acceptable for home HiFi use from a sound quality standpoint.

Now don't get me wrong. I sincerely appreciate the work the reviewer has put into gathering this data.

I don't know what people are trying to prove here. The Crown XLI 800 is not suitable for home HiFi use...

...The question is how good is good enough when speakers have levels of distortion in their best range that are 100 times that of the best amps, and listening environments have noise levels that are also 100 times (or more) than the best measuring amps. Some of the worrying going on here isn't any more productive than trying to select expensive cables, except some members don't get it.